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daniel4832
Guest
Sarah,
I'm afraid to ask, where you think the fry are coming from?
Thanks,
Daniel
I'm afraid to ask, where you think the fry are coming from?
Thanks,
Daniel
What Is Your Favorite Stripping Technique?
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Charlutz
Members
The male is the one with the socks.
longstocking
Members
LOL oops sorry about that ! LOL... my mind is else where !
I've seen this happen as well... where the male refuses to take them OR the female just doesn't like the male anymore! Not uncommon at all ! I'd watch the pair closely... as sometimes when this sort of thing happens the pair bond has been broken. SOmetimes not... like I said... gobies are freakn weird fish ! Love them !!! LOL
I've seen this happen as well... where the male refuses to take them OR the female just doesn't like the male anymore! Not uncommon at all ! I'd watch the pair closely... as sometimes when this sort of thing happens the pair bond has been broken. SOmetimes not... like I said... gobies are freakn weird fish ! Love them !!! LOL
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daniel4832
Guest
Sarah,
Put the female back in the tank with the male, (fed the male before adding the female) and this morning she was back on her regular spot, sitting on top of the sponge filter.
Still have the fry, but only had a 15 empty when I moved the female, I'm concerned that the tank may be too large for the fry to find food.
This is the first time that I have had a successful breeding of any biparental species where both parents have not held the eggs/fry.
Thanks,
Daniel
Put the female back in the tank with the male, (fed the male before adding the female) and this morning she was back on her regular spot, sitting on top of the sponge filter.
Still have the fry, but only had a 15 empty when I moved the female, I'm concerned that the tank may be too large for the fry to find food.
This is the first time that I have had a successful breeding of any biparental species where both parents have not held the eggs/fry.
Thanks,
Daniel
longstocking
Members
They won't eat for a couple of days.... so don't feed much. They just kind of sit there for a while... kind of like calvus do. The food has to come to them the first couple of days. Of course they don't need to eat the first few days. Be glad you put them in a 15 gallon ! Goby fry need to be VERY stable. Move them at the first sign of aggression or you will slowly loose them... I like 30 gallons for goby fry.
Charlutz
Members
Two of my callochromis females are holding. Damn, they spawn small. Fish are barely 2". Strip, remove moms, let hold? What works for them, Sarah?
longstocking
Members
Let them hold for quite a while. Tumbling does not work... eggs are too senstive.
Congrats !
Sand sifters don't hold as long as other mouthbrooders. I'd wait 18 days or so.
Congrats !
Sand sifters don't hold as long as other mouthbrooders. I'd wait 18 days or so.
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daniel4832
Guest
Sarah,
I've raised them before, a number of times, and yes like Altolamps they need the food in front of their faces or they won't eat, which is why I have always used a 2.5 gallon to start. The other advantage of using a 2.5 is that I can fill it from the breeding tank, add a seeded sponge filter and no change in the water conditions, another reason Im concerned about moving them into that 15, different water conditions. Also since they were fully developed when the female spit, they started eating immedately, while I didn't see it, I believe that she had been releasing them in the tank to feed before I moved them into the other tank. I will just have to wait and see what happens, the good thing is that I have learned more about the habits of this particular pair.
Thanks,
Daniel
longstocking
Members
If the pair bond hasn't been broken... I would suggest this. Give them a large rock out of the way from all the other fish in the tank.... up higher. They tend to trade fry there in my tanks. I have seen this happen when the pair just can't find a good place to swap fry.
2.5 gallon? lol... I wouldn't even try that ! I don't even like 10 gallons for them.
2.5 gallon? lol... I wouldn't even try that ! I don't even like 10 gallons for them.
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daniel4832
Guest
The 2.5s have been sucessfully working for me for decades.
As with most of my breeders they have their own tank (rather then being mixed with other fish), in their case a 20L which they have been in for over a year.
I guess from your reply, that I didn't make it clear that by the female sitting on top of the sponge filter (the highest point in the tank) that the pair had resumed the same behavior they have displayed over the last year (the male prefers sitting on an elevated flat rock) so the bond wasn't broken.
Daniel
longstocking
Members
YOu have them by themselves in a 20 gallon? Are these wilds?
That is probably part of the problem.
That is probably part of the problem.
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daniel4832
Guest
Yes they are wilds, and yes they are in a 20 by themselves, as I said before, and I don't see any "problems" with that. While I consider you one of the better keepers and breeders of Tangs, I would appreciate if you remember that I have been breeding some of these Tangs before you were bred, err born
. I have picked up a few things in the 40+ years I have been keeping cichlids. There is no one correct way to keep cichlids, it is still more of an art rather then a science, and what works for you, may not work for someone else, or they may have found, what's for them a "better" way of doing things then you. You may want to try to keep your suggestions as suggestions, rather then "this is the ONLY way to do things" as you sometimes come off as doing. Just a suggestion. :lol: Thanks,
Daniel
longstocking
Members
LOLOL ok I'm done !
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daniel4832
Guest
No don't stop, I truely do respect your opinions, and I have learned from your observtions. It's just somtimes you get what a number of us "old-timers" refer to as the "cichlid-forum" syndrome "THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO DO THIS, ANY OTHER WAY OR DEVIATION IS COMPLETELY WRONG!!!" :smashfreakB: one of the reasons I stoped visiting their forum. Just try to keep in mind there may be more then one way that works.
Thanks,
Daniel
Charlutz
Members
That attitude is an unfortunate aspect of all large forums, and is not peculiar to the cichlid-forum. Usually, you can tell when someone is recommending something without any experience because they provide no additional information. People also like to recommend what they've bought as a way to justify what they've done, sometimes subconsciously: "I have this tv and the picture is phenomenal." Translation: "I just spend $3k on a television and I can't figure out how to use it but it's bigger and more expensive than what it had, and I have nothing to compare it to, but the forum said it was the best, so it must be." Never mind that "the forum" could be some 16 year old who never owned his own ____ but recommended a set for someone else to buy. People also repeat things without trying them and once it gets repeated enough, it becomes truth. If it's written, it must be true.
Don't get me wrong. I love forums. But you have to be careful whose advice you follow. When I comment on something I haven't myself tried, I'll try to flag it as "I've read ____" or "I've not tried ___, but I've seen it recommended quite a bit."
End of rant. I think I just hijacked my own thread. :blink:
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daniel4832
Guest
That attitude is an unfortunate aspect of all large forums, and is not peculiar to the cichlid-forum. Usually, you can tell when someone is recommending something without any experience because they provide no additional information. People also like to recommend what they've bought as a way to justify what they've done, sometimes subconsciously: "I have this tv and the picture is phenomenal." Translation: "I just spend $3k on a television and I can't figure out how to use it but it's bigger and more expensive than what it had, and I have nothing to compare it to, but the forum said it was the best, so it must be." Never mind that "the forum" could be some 16 year old who never owned his own ____ but recommended a set for someone else to buy. People also repeat things without trying them and once it gets repeated enough, it becomes truth. If it's written, it must be true.
Don't get me wrong. I love forums. But you have to be careful whose advice you follow. When I comment on something I haven't myself tried, I'll try to flag it as "I've read ____" or "I've not tried ___, but I've seen it recommended quite a bit."
End of rant. I think I just hijacked my own thread. :blink:
[/b][/quote]
Charlie,
I actually was referring to some of the moderators, :blush:
You brought up a good point about actually trying something before recomending it to others. I'm trying to recomend to be open to other methods of doing things (such as stripping, or not, of our fish) even after you may have found one way that works. For example, and not to keep picking on Sarah, but she is such a good sport about it, her finding a way that worked for her, after 3 years with breeding gobies, and me spending 30 years on raising and breeding Tropheus before I felt that I was truely successful, that is, to be able to have the fry to be raised with the breeding groups. On the other hand while Sarah is extremely sucuccessful in breeding her fish in multi-species tanks, I had not been. With Sarahs' examples I have been trying, and I'm starting to have some very limited success, but more importently I'm learning new things about my fish, even after 40+ years. I'm hoping to keep learning new things, so that I won't burn out like I've so many times over the years by good hobbiest.
Sorry Charlie, (oops) how was that for a rant!
Thanks,
Daniel
Charlutz
Members
Ah.
My biggest frustration is people repeating stuff that they have no idea what they are talking about. People express opinions on products they have never used or methods they have never tried. I spend most of my time in the DIY forum. I like to build stuff but have no engineering background or artistic ability. So I have to learn. 2 not so quick examples.
1. In my quest to learn about stand building I learned from a general contractor the basics about construction. But then, I contacted an engineer to learn specifically about wood tolerances. He and I had an email conversation over a week or so where I kept giving him numbers and he kept putting them into formulas to reach conclusions. After all that work, we came up with a great rule of thumb for determining span lengths for stands. If you don't use a center support you can use a 2x4 for a 4 foot span, 2x6 for 6 foot and 2x8 for 8 foot. Was a very simple rule and had the math behind it. I posted it once on the CF. A few weeks later, someone critiqued someone else's stand, overlooking some major flaws but citing the span rule incorrectly (the stand had center supports and no spans longer than 16" so the span rule wasn't really applicable). If I hadn't seen the thread and recognized "my rule" I never would have known it was bad info or that the guy citing it had no expertise.
2. It was oft cited over there that when plumbing a sump, if your return pump was too strong that instead of using a ball valve to cut down the flow, you should tee a line directly back to the sump. That diverting the flow instead of using the valve would increase pump life by lessening strain from the restriction. Seemingly makes common sense, but why does every pump manufacturer tell you to use a ball valve? I came across another engineer on a reef forum who worked with municipal water system pumps. He did some experiments and calculations and concluded a pump uses less energy when used with a ball valve and more when at full speed. I started a thread at CF to discuss and could not find one single person who could point to any math or study saying that the tee method saved energy or strain like most people were blindly recommending, but a number of people who were able to investigate and reach the same conclusion as the engineer I talked to, including a rep from Danner (makes the Mag Drive pumps). Nobody before had ever even checked. They just recommended it without talking to anyone else.
I'm not surprised you see the same thing with breeders on the forum, though I generally think the mods (except that Longstocking chick) are pretty good. :FIREdevil: It's a byproduct of forum culture. I am disappointed you don't post there though. I think it's part of my obligation to correct outright mistakes or offer alternative advice if I have some expertise on a topic. Your experience in breeding is invaluable and you would be a great benefit if you shared. If you do it in a diplomatic way and explain why there are alternatives, it usually will go over pretty well. Then again, I could see why that would be hard for you. :FIREdevil:
My biggest frustration is people repeating stuff that they have no idea what they are talking about. People express opinions on products they have never used or methods they have never tried. I spend most of my time in the DIY forum. I like to build stuff but have no engineering background or artistic ability. So I have to learn. 2 not so quick examples.
1. In my quest to learn about stand building I learned from a general contractor the basics about construction. But then, I contacted an engineer to learn specifically about wood tolerances. He and I had an email conversation over a week or so where I kept giving him numbers and he kept putting them into formulas to reach conclusions. After all that work, we came up with a great rule of thumb for determining span lengths for stands. If you don't use a center support you can use a 2x4 for a 4 foot span, 2x6 for 6 foot and 2x8 for 8 foot. Was a very simple rule and had the math behind it. I posted it once on the CF. A few weeks later, someone critiqued someone else's stand, overlooking some major flaws but citing the span rule incorrectly (the stand had center supports and no spans longer than 16" so the span rule wasn't really applicable). If I hadn't seen the thread and recognized "my rule" I never would have known it was bad info or that the guy citing it had no expertise.
2. It was oft cited over there that when plumbing a sump, if your return pump was too strong that instead of using a ball valve to cut down the flow, you should tee a line directly back to the sump. That diverting the flow instead of using the valve would increase pump life by lessening strain from the restriction. Seemingly makes common sense, but why does every pump manufacturer tell you to use a ball valve? I came across another engineer on a reef forum who worked with municipal water system pumps. He did some experiments and calculations and concluded a pump uses less energy when used with a ball valve and more when at full speed. I started a thread at CF to discuss and could not find one single person who could point to any math or study saying that the tee method saved energy or strain like most people were blindly recommending, but a number of people who were able to investigate and reach the same conclusion as the engineer I talked to, including a rep from Danner (makes the Mag Drive pumps). Nobody before had ever even checked. They just recommended it without talking to anyone else.
I'm not surprised you see the same thing with breeders on the forum, though I generally think the mods (except that Longstocking chick) are pretty good. :FIREdevil: It's a byproduct of forum culture. I am disappointed you don't post there though. I think it's part of my obligation to correct outright mistakes or offer alternative advice if I have some expertise on a topic. Your experience in breeding is invaluable and you would be a great benefit if you shared. If you do it in a diplomatic way and explain why there are alternatives, it usually will go over pretty well. Then again, I could see why that would be hard for you. :FIREdevil:
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daniel4832
Guest
Charlie,
That last comment is like the one Pat made, way too general. You will always know how I feel about something or someone, if I like or dislike something or someone there is no doubt, becase that feeling will be expressed both privately and publicly. I'm not one to say one thing in public, and another in private, you get what you see, which is why I would never make it in politics . I also will admit when I'm wrong (as much as I may hate to) as I had to do recently about a LFS that I hate, and the inappropriate use I made of this forum, I was wrong. OK getting way off topic, the point I'm trying to make is that I beleive that I don't go all berserker when debating differences in keeping fish. I will have to admit that I have gone berserker when personal relationships have gone bad, I feel that there are certain rules that friends should follow, and when broken are made worst when done by a friend, instead of an acquaintance. Again trying to get back to the point, I don't beleive I have been undiplomatic when sticking to fish topics, and have enjoyed the spirted debates I have had on this forum (yes Sarah I'm especially talking about you ) If I have been, or in the future become "undiplomatic" please feel free to point it out.
Again to get back to your point, I agree with you, I do have a lot to offer when debating cichlids, since I started breeding cichlids in the 60s I have met some of the people who have advanced our hobby, and seen our hobby make incredible changes in the last four decades. I have even had some small part in advancing our hobby just by doing it for so long. Most people know me for breeding Tangs, but don't realize that I have worked with different cichlids from all around the world, and the mistakes and success I aquired from that has helped make me more successful with Tangs. The best thing is that I'm still making mistakes and having success and learning from both.
Sorry for this long rambling rant, but you opened up some things I guess I needed to get off my chest, plus I'm one more post closer to getting my second fish
Thanks,
Daniel
That last comment is like the one Pat made, way too general. You will always know how I feel about something or someone, if I like or dislike something or someone there is no doubt, becase that feeling will be expressed both privately and publicly. I'm not one to say one thing in public, and another in private, you get what you see, which is why I would never make it in politics
. I also will admit when I'm wrong (as much as I may hate to) as I had to do recently about a LFS that I hate, and the inappropriate use I made of this forum, I was wrong. OK getting way off topic, the point I'm trying to make is that I beleive that I don't go all berserker when debating differences in keeping fish. I will have to admit that I have gone berserker when personal relationships have gone bad, I feel that there are certain rules that friends should follow, and when broken are made worst when done by a friend, instead of an acquaintance. Again trying to get back to the point, I don't beleive I have been undiplomatic when sticking to fish topics, and have enjoyed the spirted debates I have had on this forum (yes Sarah I'm especially talking about you ) If I have been, or in the future become "undiplomatic" please feel free to point it out. Again to get back to your point, I agree with you, I do have a lot to offer when debating cichlids, since I started breeding cichlids in the 60s I have met some of the people who have advanced our hobby, and seen our hobby make incredible changes in the last four decades. I have even had some small part in advancing our hobby just by doing it for so long. Most people know me for breeding Tangs, but don't realize that I have worked with different cichlids from all around the world, and the mistakes and success I aquired from that has helped make me more successful with Tangs. The best thing is that I'm still making mistakes and having success and learning from both.
Sorry for this long rambling rant, but you opened up some things I guess I needed to get off my chest, plus I'm one more post closer to getting my second fish
Thanks,
Daniel
Charlutz
Members
I think you took one throwaway tag line at the end of my post too seriously. The devil emoticon was to indicate I was pushing buttons. I should've written the sentence this way:
I meant "you" in the collective, general sense, not you specifically, but that didn't come across as I poked fun at you in the next sentence. My bad. [Speaking generally again about forums]: people get defensive about their opinions and on the anonymous intraweb they get a little stupid about it. If one challenges an opinion but gives facts to back it up and takes care to point out that it's an alternate point of view based on differing experience, it usually results in a debate, rather than a ____ing match. That's the general point I was trying to make. I was poking fun of your recent forum history. Didn't mean to open it back up again.
I meant "you" in the collective, general sense, not you specifically, but that didn't come across as I poked fun at you in the next sentence. My bad. [Speaking generally again about forums]: people get defensive about their opinions and on the anonymous intraweb they get a little stupid about it. If one challenges an opinion but gives facts to back it up and takes care to point out that it's an alternate point of view based on differing experience, it usually results in a debate, rather than a ____ing match. That's the general point I was trying to make. I was poking fun of your recent forum history. Didn't mean to open it back up again.
Tim
Members
I believe in the case of gobie cichlids, the pair bond can be pretty fragile. It's been my experience that a 20L does not give the pair enough room to avoid each other if the need arises. It's also been my experience that keeping gobies (Tanganicodus and Eretmodus, no experience with Spathodus yet), in a four foot tank with tank mates helps strengthen the pair bond, because sticking together gives them an ally against everyone else. (Not that they're vicious fish towards non-conspecifics).
I'm not against trying new things and getting things to work, but I've done the Tanganicodus in a 20L. It didn't work for me. So, I've already tried it. On top of that, it's my personal preference to err closer to normal conditions for my fish. The territory in the wild of a pair of Gobies is much larger than a 20L. It's also larger than a 75 gallon and perhaps I'm just being arbitrary on where I set the bar for myself. When I try new things however, I'd rather have a better chance of them working by being conservative, rather than trying something new or trying something that worked for some others but isn't recommended as a ideal setup.
(In a vain attempt to move the thread back towards the original post.)
Tim
I'm not against trying new things and getting things to work, but I've done the Tanganicodus in a 20L. It didn't work for me. So, I've already tried it. On top of that, it's my personal preference to err closer to normal conditions for my fish. The territory in the wild of a pair of Gobies is much larger than a 20L. It's also larger than a 75 gallon and perhaps I'm just being arbitrary on where I set the bar for myself. When I try new things however, I'd rather have a better chance of them working by being conservative, rather than trying something new or trying something that worked for some others but isn't recommended as a ideal setup.
(In a vain attempt to move the thread back towards the original post.)
Tim
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