Wild Rift Lake Fish?

[dogofwar]

WC guppies are a totally different situation than, say, Tropheus from Lake Tang, because (among other reasons) WC guppies are found lots and lots of places and the main threat to their existence isn't collection for the fish hobby.

Of course wild guppies are the little grayish fish that were bred, inbred, hybridizied, etc, etc. to make the long-finned colorful beauties that we have today.

I seem to recall Mark Denaro or someone having some wild guppies for sale (from Trinidad) a few years ago.

As I posted before, I think that Wild fish from the Rift Lakes are a special situation.

Matt

I wanted some WC guppies, but I guess not anymore.... I am getting guppies from Frank Cowherd and Arlene and her 7.5 year old son.

 

[verbal]

I think without Wild Caught fish, there is less interest in the natural habitat. I think overall the more interest in a habitat the more likely it is to be preserved. I don't think alone fish hobbyists can save an environment(other pressures are much larger), but we can be part of the solution rather than the problem.

While there are cautionary tales, there are also successes that have come about due to the interest in the natural habitats and preserving species. Do you think the Anti-netting devices in Lake Malawi would have happened without fish being imported?

Would there be any Victorian cichlids to preserve if they were never wild-caught?

I think Psuedotropheus saulosi illustrates both the dangers and a potential success story in how to manage a species. I think the hobby is better having Psuedo. Saulosi in it. I think the program to re-introduce them will do a lot to make up for previous mistakes made by collectors and hobbyists.

I think Wild Caught fish are ok, but we need to demand that it is done in a responsible manner.

 

[dogofwar]

I'd like to think that keeping wild fish from the lakes would inspire people to learn more about the natural habitats of their fish.

But does it really?

Does the average hobbyist who owns a wild fish know where X collection point is in the lake? Whether it's in a protected area or not? What the nature of the habitat is (there are lots of pics available on CRC and Konings books)? Or just the (probably incorrectly spelled) name (and bragging rights)?

And more importantly, has owning WC fish inspired them to explore efforts to conserve and preserve the lake? Give money, time or other resources to make it happen?

The anti-netting device work, while directly connected to hobbyists and admirable, is poorly funded, sporadically supported and too narrow to really have an impact on a widespread basis.

The saulosi captive breeding project is way too early to call a success. There is no way to know the impact of having overfished them to the point of near extinction (on their genetic pool, habitat, other species with whom they share the habitat, etc.).

Matt

 

[Avatar]

Species trade is always bad for species/habitats

That could easily be the first maxim of conservation. Have to agree with Matt as most of my experience reveals that while people may imagine they have concerns about species, that rarely translates back to similar concerns re: said species' natural habitat - mostly it's a complete disconnect. You might fundraise successfully to protect tigers or beluga whales per se, but their habitat? Good luck with that.

As for successes, virtually a nonesuch, with even the "charismatic megafauna" (rhinos, elephants, big cats, great apes, cetaceans and the like) seeing their already decimated numbers diminish further annually. Don't kid yourself - there is less and less of virtually everything all the time - that's just how it's unraveling/devolving these days and it takes exceptional commitment, focus and energy merely to hold the line let alone accomplish anything that remotely qualifies as actual success. Any feel good story you think you know about species protection is almost surely at best a glorified holding action that will begin eroding before the ink is dry on the press release.

We're crossing the threshold of the sixth great extinction event of the last 750 million years (read as ever) and will probably lose half of all vertebrate species on the planet in the next century. That's the grim reality of what it means when everyone thinks they're "part of solutions" that are falling well short of the mark across the board. It's not unlike what Yoda said - there is no trying, only doing.

Faith without works is not faith, knowing and not doing is not knowing.

 

[Jmty]

Hey sam if you coming to pvas let me know si we can trade , thanks jose


Sent from my iPhone using MonsterAquariaNetwork app

 

[Tony]

That could easily be the first maxim of conservation. Have to agree with Matt as most of my experience reveals that while people may imagine they have concerns about species, that rarely translates back to similar concerns re: said species' natural habitat - mostly it's a complete disconnect. You might fundraise successfully to protect tigers or beluga whales per se, but their habitat? Good luck with that.

As for successes, virtually a nonesuch, with even the "charismatic megafauna" (rhinos, elephants, big cats, great apes, cetaceans and the like) seeing their already decimated numbers diminish further annually. Don't kid yourself - there is less and less of virtually everything all the time - that's just how it's unraveling/devolving these days and it takes exceptional commitment, focus and energy merely to hold the line let alone accomplish anything that remotely qualifies as actual success. Any feel good story you think you know about species protection is almost surely at best a glorified holding action that will begin eroding before the ink is dry on the press release.

We're crossing the threshold of the sixth great extinction event of the last 750 million years (read as ever) and will probably lose half of all vertebrate species on the planet in the next century. That's the grim reality of what it means when everyone thinks they're "part of solutions" that are falling well short of the mark across the board. It's not unlike what Yoda said - there is no trying, only doing.

Faith without works is not faith, knowing and not doing is not knowing.

A bit grim, Sam. So what's the logical step that we, as average folks and also fish hobbyists can take?

 

[Avatar]

What can you do?

Blow up the TV, throw away the car keys, try to find Jesus, on your own. Well, two out of three ain't bad.

Keep your sense of humor. And then pick one thing and make it your own. Read about it and otherwise become dangerously knowledgeable which will lead you to meet like-minded folk who will become your allies and before you know it you've got a movement. That's how it happens. If every citizen had just one social/public issue they contributed a smidgen of time/energy/support to/for we could manage because every problem one helps to mitigate/solve frees up time/energy/resources for something else - like limiting GHG emissions, developing/establishing truly renewable energy sources/supplies, or regulating/taking corporate polluters/legislators to task for deficit spending on the environment.

And exercise utmost discretion as a consumer - if no one buys or pays for something (item or service) it tends to diminish or disappear (or recover in the case of species/habitat).

And as Mr. Lennon said - imagine. This is the Third Millenium and the human species is no less than the crown of creation - the end-product and crowning glory of a billion years of ongoing evolutionary field trails. If we can imagine it, good chance it can be done.


For Tony, et al.:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjKF7aQthcQ

And for me, et al. because it's Spring! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSCJJkFgt_w

 

[dogofwar]

I'm a little more optimistic than Sam and think that hobbyists can make a real difference through awareness and support of actual conservation and preservation efforts by NGOs, governments and communities.

For example, the Nature Conservancy is working in and around Lake Tanganyika in ways that, I believe, very few hobbyists are aware of: http://magazine.nature.org/features/habitats-humanity.xml

How many hobbyists know that Jane Goodall is working around Lake Tanganyika...and that the same threats to primates also impact the lake?

How many hobbyists know that, for example, that Wildlife Conservation Society has been working in the area, locally, since the 1950s? http://www.wcs.org/where-we-work/africa/tanzania.aspx

Or IUCN: http://www.iucn.org/about/work/prog...we_work/wp_our_work_projects/wp_our_work_ltb/

And there are many others. Some doing good things. Some less effective. And I'm sure some wasting money.

But there are nearly limitless opportunities for hobbyists who care to get involved to support something positive and at least locally impact-full...

But very few hobbyists do...

Matt

A bit grim, Sam. So what's the logical step that we, as average folks and also fish hobbyists can take?

 

[Avatar]

Pass the whiskey

I'm a little more optimistic than Sam and think that hobbyists can make a real difference through awareness and support of actual conservation and preservation efforts by NGOs, governments and communities.Matt

Never said otherwise. My prognostications regarding the planetary ecosystem in no way imply hopelessness or dismiss the potential contributions of ordinary folk to making a difference. Just think it's best to know the full measure of your "adversary" because ignorance is many things but the bliss part is invariably fleeting and illusory. That being said, you are undoubtedly more optimistic than I - a number of reasons for that I'm sure including the fact that I was regretfully only breast-fed until the age of six. Oh to think what might have been...

 

[neut]

Another step in a serious hobbyist's learning curve-- going from being aware of a species, to knowledge and success in keeping or breeding them, to learning something about their wild habitat, to learning whether there are ecological/conservation issues to consider. Like other aspects of fishkeeping it helps if the information is out there and being shared.

(Click the "More" button at the bottom of the pages in the links below to page through the articles)
Stuart Grant conservation fund 1

Stuart Grant conservation fund 2

Stuart Grant conservation fund 3

 

[Avatar]

Awareness only matters if it informs/effects activity

Another step in a serious hobbyist's learning curve-- going from being aware of a species, to knowledge and success in keeping or breeding them, to learning something about their wild habitat, to learning whether there are ecological/conservation issues to consider.

Left out the last and only really important part - contributing to the conservation solution(s). Faith without works....

Could make a very good case that the points in this curve are laid out exactly backwards. A "serious" (and responsible) hobbyist would find out about "whether there are ecological/conservation issues to consider" first as opposed to after the fact of spending money to support commerce that may be causing the demise of species. Agree that what is described may be the norm, but then that's why species trade and consumer culture is so potentially/typically devastating.

 

[Rasta Fish]

[FONT=&quot]My 2 cents ….[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Conservation works !!!
We owe it to the future of the next generation of hobbyist
to enjoy what we are enjoying now.
Our present and past generation started some of the issues these lakes, rivers and streams are having today from the introduction of the Nile Perch which spawned a booming business and the poverty around the lakes (no stopping now) to the over fishing of fishes for the hobbyist, because we show interest we start a business, because of the business we have population growth and the depletion of natural resources, so YES Conservation works or is needed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Wild Caught I don’t buy them personally.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Are they necessary? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I think so, as a hobbyist I like to get new fishes once in a while or I would get bored[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have been keeping fishes mainly African Cichlids for over 20 years; I keep pure strain and also Hybrids or line breads fishes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I do look forward to seeing something new in the hobby, but seriously at this rate we do need to preserve and conserve …..[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Good topic …[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Passenger pigeons! [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]WAIT! WHAT IS THAT? [/FONT]

 

[Avatar]

You think so?

Conservation works !!!

Really? Not to rain on the parade, but outside of the U.S. (not that it's own history in this respect is exactly glorious), bet you can't cite three species conservation success stories that have succeeded in anything beyond imposing a temporary and tenuous hold against the imminent threat of extinction. In fact, I'll bet you can't even name one without going to the internet and even then you won't find much from which to chose.

Not hectoring, just pointing out that "conservation" is still largely a theoretical construct in most of the world, mostly because it's an elective adjunct to human/societal expression rather than an intrinsic feature. As such, conservation will only ever succeed when it becomes something we do as rather than after we do as we do. That's just the nature of causality in a closed system inhabited by an increasingly large and ravenous population of eight billion people - not unlike climate change in that it's just really hard if not impossible to put the genie (carbon) back in the bottle.

Apologies, the offense rests. Really need to get back to terrorizing unscrupulous industrialists...

 

[neut]

Left out the last and only really important part - contributing to the conservation solution(s). Faith without works....

Could make a very good case that the points in this curve are laid out exactly backwards. A "serious" (and responsible) hobbyist would find out about "whether there are ecological/conservation issues to consider" first as opposed to after the fact of spending money to support commerce that may be causing the demise of species. Agree that what is described may be the norm, but then that's why species trade and consumer culture is so potentially/typically devastating.

Was (obviously) not my intention to post a comprehensive, detailed, peer reviewed and ready for publication cichlid hobbyist learning curve, an unrealistic notion in the first place since there's no codified and binding law regarding how to become a hobbyist and different people come at it differently. Was making the simple point that a hobbyist's interests and concerns ultimately can and perhaps should exceed their own fish room.

To be technical about it, Lake Malawi has had a series of recession and refilling cycles, as have other East African lakes, with corresponding cycles of reduction and radiation of species (royal society article), with evidence a similar species radiation has occurred repeatedly. Article:

Repeated evolution of the same phenotypic difference during independent episodes of speciation is strong evidence for selection during speciation.

So the lake is historically (or scientifically) capable of restoring lost diversity. Do not interpret this as an argument that there's nothing to worry about and no need to respect or conserve the natural world-- not my point-- but it is a part of the reality in which the lake has existed.

 

[neut]

Left out the last and only really important part - contributing to the conservation solution(s).

And exactly why, do you suppose, did I post links to the Stuart Grant conservation fund, which Ad Konings supports and to which anyone can contribute?

 

[dogofwar]

Good stuff, Sam. And I agree that the final step (that you described) is vital...and that one need not have to progress through the other steps to "care" (pun intended).

Case in point:
Siena and I set up the tank that Siena won from the AquaMania Give a Kid a Tank competition in her second grade class.

Instead of decorating and stocking the tank with...whatever rainbow-colored fish and gravel were around, Siena and I decided to take another approach.

Siena chose a pair of Xenoteca eiseni (red-tailed goodieds) from the fishroom...and we started from there. These are from a line collected many, many generations ago...yet are vibrant, healthy and colorful little fish....with a legit collection location.

We started our presentation with a the mechanics of setting up (and maintaining) just about any fish tank - filtration, water, nitrifying bacteria, etc.

Then we talked about the fish that we selected and where they come from (Rio Tamazula on the Pacific side of Mexico)... showed some YouTube videos of the area, including one of people 4x4ing in it (!), another of a massive fish kill and another of a seemingly more peaceful time for the river.

We told the kids that the fish was endangered in the wild. And the kids gave their perspectives on why. The next question: What can YOU do to prevent similar problems in the Fallsmead Pond (the little pond in our neighborhood)? And you'd be blown away at the responses. They also want to write a letter to kids in that area to tell them about their fish tank and to take care of the river (and goodieds).

The kids decorated the tank similar to what they saw in the videos... and were stoked at the idea of the pair having babies and being able to share them with other kids, classes and fishkeepers. I hope that happens.

Matt

Left out the last and only really important part - contributing to the conservation solution(s). Faith without works....

Could make a very good case that the points in this curve are laid out exactly backwards. A "serious" (and responsible) hobbyist would find out about "whether there are ecological/conservation issues to consider" first as opposed to after the fact of spending money to support commerce that may be causing the demise of species. Agree that what is described may be the norm, but then that's why species trade and consumer culture is so potentially/typically devastating.

 

[Rasta Fish]

Well, I think I can name Two, Jamaican crocodile and the Manatee, me being from Jamaica as a kid growing it was made illegal to harm the Jamaican crocodile as it was hunted so much it made the endangered list, also was the Manatee, efforts have been made to conserve these species and they have made a huge come back.

I can’t disagree with you that in a closed system and increasing population that it will not work, so I guess we can only prolong the inevitable.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[Tony]

Heads up right now.

Be polite. This is an interesting and educational thread, but I will not hesitate to close it if you guys start smashing each other.

 

[dogofwar]

As much as this is a worthy cause (albeit extremely limited in scope, reach and funding), it addresses the "problem" of people fishing for food in places that they're not supposed to...vs. hobby (demand) driven extinction of populations of fish in the lake.

How many hobbyists have given to this cause? How many have gotten involved at a level deeper? How many hobbyists have changed their behavior as a result?

Matt

And exactly why, do you suppose, did I post links to the Stuart Grant conservation fund, which Ad Konings supports and to which anyone can contribute?

Duh.

...but in case you missed the Donate button on several pages: Donate

 

[Avatar]

Devils advocate

This is an interesting and educational thread, but I will not hesitate to close it if you guys start smashing each other.[/SIZE]

Relax, no one's "smashing" anyone. "Edgy" in academic discussion is often desirable, allows everyone to get past the pedestrian and on to the good stuff that much faster. It's all good...

Was making the simple point that a hobbyist's interests and concerns ultimately can and perhaps should exceed their own fish room.
—Got that, just wasn't sure that others would, no condescension intended.


To be technical about it, Lake Malawi has had a series of recession and refilling cycles, as have other East African lakes, with corresponding cycles of reduction and radiation of species. So the lake is historically (or scientifically) capable of restoring lost diversity. Do not interpret this as an argument that there's nothing to worry about and no need to respect or conserve the natural world-- not my point-- but it is a part of the reality in which the lake has existed.

— Not quite seeing the correlation but agree this is a fascinating aspect of some of the Rift Lake ecologies, pity that vertebrate speciation generally requires a period of time equivalent to or longer than all of recorded human history, to say nothing of habitat which is in increasingly short supply.

And exactly why, do you suppose, did I post links to the Stuart Grant conservation fund, which Ad Konings supports and to which anyone can contribute?

— Doubtless to broaden awareness and enable/encourage connectivity. I wrote what I did because "conservation" efforts are rarely as real or substantive as the circumstances of extinction or habitat loss they purport to arrest/reverse (hence their fabulous failure rate) and because as such it doesn't do anyone/anything any favors to imagine otherwise. May not be what most want to hear, but it is what it is.

RastaFish: There is no Jamaican manatee per se, the island's resident population being but part of the vastly larger range for the migratory West Indian manatee's Antillian sub-species estimated at 2500. In 2011 UNEP estimated the population of manatees in Jamaica to be approximately 50 with other sources placing it as low as 20 - pretty "tenuous" in my book. Saw a couple when I was there on the South Coast some years back - any chance you've been to Gut River? Such an amazing locale I actually toyed with idea of a long-term home lease nearby to work on bringing Jamaica it's first dedicated wilderness area - since hurricanes regularly track though/make landfall there I guess neither the big hotels nor anyone else ever developed it, really stunning place, but then I have a particular bias toward hummingbirds, cuckoos and kestrels.