Outdoor Container Garden

[rainforestexp]

I have some you can have for free

Hey all,

Last fall, I picked up a 60 gallon (?) 4' long fiberglass container from George when he was down-sizing. Other than being pink, it's pretty awesome.

With a bit of grovelling, I convinced the wife to let me expand the hobby out-of-doors. Last week, I picked up a can of brown indoor/outdoor, bonds-to-plastic spray paint at the Depot and wallah!

With temperatures at night finally getting out of the 40s, I'm planning on setting it up this evening. Going to start with some anubias and some of the lilypads I pulled out of Andrew's pond.

Not thinking of going crazy with fish... likely Buenes Aires tetras. No filtration, aeration or heating. Plants should take care of the water so long as I keep stocking to a minimum.

Anyone have any baby swords they'd like to sell or trade? Thinking of tossing a couple in there as well for cover for tetra fry.

I'll keep the thread updated as it progresses.

 

[Tony]

My suggestions for hydroponic candidates are mostly (and sadly) outlawed, but cattails might be cool. Problem with pea gravel is that it's not porous or even rough to maximize surface area, but the volume of water you're moving should somewhat compensate and smaller gravel would help as well.

Lobelia (red cardinal flower) is amazing (just ask the hummingbirds) and don't mind/prefer having their roots submerged. Respectable nurseries usually stock them - there are white and I believe blue varieties as well so you could have a pretty stunning and very patriotic filter.

Do you guys think I should use that clay hydroponic substrate instead? It's inert, right? Probably has a ton of surface area for bacteria. Only concern is that it may be a bit too coarse to catch crap flowing through the filter.

Will keep an eye out for Lobelia (making a wish list for a trip to the garden center on Sunday)

you should also be able to find some cyperus at a plant nursery or even somtimes the Depot or Lowes. If you're lucky....you'll find Cyperus papayrus which I think is cool just because of what it is. There are also some dwarf varieties out there. It's not hardy in this area, though, so you'll have to overwinter indoors or replace it next year.

Think back to the presentation on Vics that we had last year....remember those cyperus swamps he showed? I thought they were pretty awesome.

That would be pretty cool. Definitely need to get something small (and not too top-heavy) to keep in the planter as it's only one of those window-box sized plastic deals. If it can grow submerged, then I can just throw it in one of the tanks though....

Also, not sure if this is too big for you to do, but there are some members of the large grasses/sedge family that they've done some research on that (although not terribly atractive) are huge nitrate hogs. Turns out that most terrestrial plants are ho-hum at nitrate uptake....but a few are really good at it. They're being researched by the fisheries for that use and for treating farmland runoff.

Nitrate uptake would be nice. With the summer heat, more prone to top-offs than draining (though my surrounding potted herbs do love them so fish water.

+1

I used to grow those in my goldfish pond back in Cali...

You can also do tomatoes, herbs and the like in the gravel. Experiment and see what works

Matt

Got a few tomatoes in the garden and a few herbs in pots up on the patio.

Are Water Chestnuts a possibility?

Great idea.. seems pertty hardy as a floating plant. Will see if I can find some.


Thanks a ton for the good ideas, crew.

 

[Tony]

I have some you can have for free

Thanks for the offer, Chris, but probably good on the swords. Picked up a few different kinds of wild swords since last fall, so thinking of tossing some growouts out there when it gets to be warmer. Think conventional range for them is around high 60s - low 80s, so should work for a while when it gets warmer.

 

[Avatar]

Lo-tech rules

Do you guys think I should use that clay hydroponic substrate instead? It's inert, right? Probably has a ton of surface area for bacteria. Only concern is that it may be a bit too coarse to catch crap flowing through the filter.

Does it matter? Know zip about clay substrate (though clay yields plant nutrients so it's not "inert" in the sense of stone or something that is strictly neutral with respect to freshwater chemistry) but if the bacteria adequately digest/process the nitrogen components, the "crap" is just potential plant nutrient/micro-organism fodder, and since you won't be able to see said detritus (as opposed to an aquarium), if it flows through it doesn't really matter, neh?.

 

[Tony]

Does it matter? Know zip about clay substrate (though clay yields plant nutrients so it's not "inert" in the sense of stone or something that is strictly neutral with respect to freshwater chemistry) but if the bacteria adequately digest/process the nitrogen components, the "crap" is just potential plant nutrient/micro-organism fodder, and since you won't be able to see said detritus (as opposed to an aquarium), if it flows through it doesn't really matter, neh?.

It's that fired clay substrate - similar to putting a pot in your tank, so don't think it will affect water chemistry. But good point on the dirt.

 

[Tony]

Bulkhead Fluid Dynamics.....

So I've gotten my containers up and running, but have a problem....

Originally, I drilled a 1" bulkhead at the water level on the top tank. Even with the 350 gph pump dialed back to a trickle (and the tank leveled, lol - see pic below), the bulkhead could not handle the flow.

I drained the tanks and enlarged the hole and installed a 1.5" bulkhead. It flows, but nowhere near the pump capacity. I currently have about 75% pf the pump's outflow directed back into the 55 on the ground.

So before I go and grab an even larger 2" bulkhead, I'm thinking that my problem is not with the size of the hole, but with the fact that it is at the water level and not below (utilizing a short standpipe).

What do you all think? What should I do from here? I was searching around the interwebs for a 2" bulkhead, but even if I ordered one, I don't think that I actually need it. 1" bulkheads are supposed to flow 300+ gallons per hour (with a standpipe) and 1.5" 2x-3x that. With the pump only being 350 gph max, I should not be having any problems, right?

So the two options are to either oversize that particular hole (and order a larger bulkhead) or patch the hole and drill another a few inches below the existing hole. From there, I'd fashion a short standpipe with a strainer on top. Will this second option increase flow or just create more noise?

Either way, plants went into the tubs yesterday and some fish may be going in tonight... still pondering low temps over the next week.

Thanks in advance. :wacko:

(EDIT - Ignore the comment abotu noise from the standpipe... I know how to deal with this - simple piece of airline threaded down the standpipe gets rid of slurping)

 

[Becca]

Nice! We are hemming and hawing over putting a water garden on our patio. I want to house the Betta patoti group I'm getting from Sam in there. I was also thinking of sectioning off a portion for paradise fish after the speaker indicated that housing them outdoors really amped up their colors.

 

[Tony]

Nice! We are hemming and hawing over putting a water garden on our patio. I want to house the Betta patoti group I'm getting from Sam in there. I was also thinking of sectioning off a portion for paradise fish after the speaker indicated that housing them outdoors really amped up their colors.

Do it! You don't need anything fancy. A container 5 gal+ should do just fine with only plants as filtration.

 

[jonclark96]

I like the new set up. I'm still kicking around how/if I can do something similar myself.

As for the drain rate, wouldn't dropping the bulkhead down allow gravity and head pressure to help? I'm a noob when it comes to aquarium plumbing, but it would seem that hole with 12" of head pressure would have higher velocity than one with 1" of head pressure.

 

[blkmjk]

In my opinion Jon is spot on with this. If your going to have a bulkhead fitting installed in this manner you need to put more than 1. I would just add two more bulkheads. Also I would use lava rock to filter that beast and if could also be used as substrate for your plant filtration.

Keep us posted on this project. I am interested in doing this myself.

Drew

NO GOOD DEED SHALL GO UNPUNISHED!

 

[Tony]

I like the new set up. I'm still kicking around how/if I can do something similar myself.

As for the drain rate, wouldn't dropping the bulkhead down allow gravity and head pressure to help? I'm a noob when it comes to aquarium plumbing, but it would seem that hole with 12" of head pressure would have higher velocity than one with 1" of head pressure.

See that's why I'm scratching my head. I think both you guys are right, but it doesn't make sense fluid-dynamics-wise. Doesn't head pressure = the amount of water sitting on top of the outflow? So if the top of the standpipe is equal with the water level, it should be the same as having the bulkhead on the side of the tank? In either configuration, the inflow is at the top of the water level and the outflow is at the elevation of the tank below.

In my opinion Jon is spot on with this. If your going to have a bulkhead fitting installed in this manner you need to put more than 1. I would just add two more bulkheads. Also I would use lava rock to filter that beast and if could also be used as substrate for your plant filtration.

Seen your plumbing skills, Drew and between you and Jon telling me it'll work, I should just stop trying to understand it and just do it, lol.

Patch the top hole, drill one further down and run a standpipe. Any thoughts on how far down I should drill?

On substrate in the flower box, I have peastone in there now, but good idea on the lava rock.

Thanks fellas.

Dropped the tetras into the top tank last night btw.

Anyone have any water hyacinth I could buy or trade for?

 

[ezrk]

See that's why I'm scratching my head. I think both you guys are right, but it doesn't make sense fluid-dynamics-wise. Doesn't head pressure = the amount of water sitting on top of the outflow? So if the top of the standpipe is equal with the water level, it should be the same as having the bulkhead on the side of the tank? In either configuration, the inflow is at the top of the water level and the outflow is at the elevation of the tank below.

The lower the hole the more pressure on the water forcing it down so the faster the flow rate. There are a number of web sites that will calculate this for you. It is the reason that a "herbie" two drain system is semi-self adjustring. As the water level goes down over the drain the rate of flow through the drain also goes down.

It is the opposite of head loss. When pushing water up a pipe the amount of distance you have to push determines how much the flow is reduced from a pump. If you punch a hole in the bottom of a bucket water will come out more quickly than if you punch a hole near the top.

put the hole in the bottom with a stand pipe and probably you will want a inverse U on the top of the standpipe to stop a vortex from forming (which is noisy).

 

[ezrk]

Try here:

http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluids/draining_tank.cfm

Which I found here

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?53688-What-flow-through-through-PVC-pipe

 

[Sonny Disposition]

Hey, I didn't think there were any more of these around! I got two from Pierre Gagne in NANFA several years back. In addition to two fifty gallon rubbermaid cattle troughs, I breed fish in mine every year.

I painted mine green!

If you go with swords, make sure you keep the trough in partial shade, so you don't boil them. Better to put the container directly on the ground, which will act as insulation against extreme temperatures, than on a wooden platform.

I'd also recommend putting a really good sight predator in the tub, to eliminate any mosquito larvae or, worse, dragon fly larvae, which will eat any baby fish that appear.

As our last week speaker recommended, Red paradise fish would work well, as would blue gouramis. One year, I put P. cyanorhabdus in a fifty gallon. They spent all their time on the bottom and were afraid to come out and pick off the larvae. I added two blue gouramis, and that took care of the problem. (Wasn't a nice thing to do to the gouramis, though.)

Hey all,

Last fall, I picked up a 60 gallon (?) 4' long fiberglass container from George when he was down-sizing. Other than being pink, it's pretty awesome.

With a bit of grovelling, I convinced the wife to let me expand the hobby out-of-doors. Last week, I picked up a can of brown indoor/outdoor, bonds-to-plastic spray paint at the Depot and wallah!

With temperatures at night finally getting out of the 40s, I'm planning on setting it up this evening. Going to start with some anubias and some of the lilypads I pulled out of Andrew's pond.

Not thinking of going crazy with fish... likely Buenes Aires tetras. No filtration, aeration or heating. Plants should take care of the water so long as I keep stocking to a minimum.

Anyone have any baby swords they'd like to sell or trade? Thinking of tossing a couple in there as well for cover for tetra fry.

I'll keep the thread updated as it progresses.

 

[chriscoli]

I've been wanting to do something like this in my yard for a while now. I have some big rubbermaid bins that I tried to use one year. The problem was that even though I zip-tied plastic egg crate over the top of the bin, the raccoons would still pry it off a bit and go fishing during the night. I'm not sure how many fish I lost, but they loved to pull out any filter material I had and eat the foam.

What are other people's strategies for keeping the nighttime critters out?

 

[blkmjk]

Easiest formula to remember is 2.31ft =1psi water column pressure. Doesn't matter if it its 6" pipe or 1" pipe same head pressure. This is the same as the head on your return pipe leaving your pump because you will have a water column above the pump while the system is in operation.

The issue I believe you are experiencing is similar but different in regard to the surface area of the pipe and the net head pressure. If you have a stand pipe then water flows around it from all sides when the water spills over the top. With your current arrangement only half of the pipe is in contact with the water and the net head is the same.
Better example would be taking a glass of water filling it and holding it on its side with your hand over the top. Release your hand and the water pours out. Now do the same thing and flip the glass over. The water leaves the glass even faster. Same water same glass why does it flow faster?. Head pressure is greater when the glass is in the vertical.

Drew

NO GOOD DEED SHALL GO UNPUNISHED!

 

[jonclark96]

Good explanation, Drew.

 

[Tony]

Good explanation, Drew.

+1. I've read through the links that Ethan sent a couple of times and couldn't quite get my head wrapped around it (Sorry - I'm slow like that). The whole surface area of the pipe thing makes sense to me.

 

[Tony]

Hey, I didn't think there were any more of these around! I got two from Pierre Gagne in NANFA several years back. In addition to two fifty gallon rubbermaid cattle troughs, I breed fish in mine every year.

I painted mine green!

If you go with swords, make sure you keep the trough in partial shade, so you don't boil them. Better to put the container directly on the ground, which will act as insulation against extreme temperatures, than on a wooden platform.

I'd also recommend putting a really good sight predator in the tub, to eliminate any mosquito larvae or, worse, dragon fly larvae, which will eat any baby fish that appear.

As our last week speaker recommended, Red paradise fish would work well, as would blue gouramis. One year, I put P. cyanorhabdus in a fifty gallon. They spent all their time on the bottom and were afraid to come out and pick off the larvae. I added two blue gouramis, and that took care of the problem. (Wasn't a nice thing to do to the gouramis, though.)

I got my tub from George when he was moving down to Florida.

I was only doing the Buenos Aires tetras outside last season and (knock on wood), don't think I had issues with dragon fly larvae. They sure munched up any mosquito larvae. Never saw any in the tub and when I wold accidentally get some somewhere else in the yard (bucket left out, pot, etc), I'd dump them in and the tetras would darn near make the water bubble like a bad piranha movie, lol.

With the water movement, I don't figure I'll get as many mosquitos laying eggs in there this year though...

Would you consider them to be good "sight predators?" I am planning on adding 4" wild-type mollies in with the tetras and some swords to the bottom tank once the night temps stay in the 60s. Still trying to figure out what the second species in the bottom tank will be. Likely candidate now is Serpae tetras.

In terms of temperature insulation, both the fiberglass tub and the glass tank are probably pretty lousy. It makes sens to put them on/partially in the ground, but already got it set up. May change things up a bit next year, but for now, I'm just going to try preventative measures when extreme temps come into play.

For cold, will turn off the dump filter and maybe even add a heater over night. For hot, the tanks are already in partial shade, but I hear what you're saying about cooking fish. Was using a leaker 55 last year and let the water fall too low (about 6"). Cooked a nice juvenile group of Gymnogeos Matt gave to me.

Lol on the gouramis and mainganos. I don't feel too bad as the former are often the jerks in the tank.

 

[Tony]

I've been wanting to do something like this in my yard for a while now. I have some big rubbermaid bins that I tried to use one year. The problem was that even though I zip-tied plastic egg crate over the top of the bin, the raccoons would still pry it off a bit and go fishing during the night. I'm not sure how many fish I lost, but they loved to pull out any filter material I had and eat the foam.

What are other people's strategies for keeping the nighttime critters out?

My dad has a "Have a Heart" trap that you can borrow if you'd like. Had a raccoon hanging out for a few days last year by my containers. Covered them with screen and put out the trap with some tuna fish in it. Never caught him, but think he had likely moved on by then.

.22 pistol is also a cheap solution... though more permanent than the relocation idea.