Ich in my 150!

[vinman]

Here is the method I use

First do a 50% water change. When refiling the tank I raise the temps of the tank water to 90 or 92 degrees. I have heaters that are pre set to 92 degrees that I use for this problem. I heat the tank with the new water then place my pre set heaters in the tank. I add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon of water. Then I add Quick Cure ( malachite Green with formalin ) about a hour or 2 after the water change and salt treatment at 1.5 to double the recommended dosage. The next day I do a 1/3 to 40% water change. I add back the salt and treat the tank with another dose of Quick Cure at the recommended dosage. The third day I do no water but dose the tank with another recommended dosage of quick cure. I leave the tank alone for 48 hours then do a 50% water change. Make sure you filters are clean a day or so before you treat the tank. if water starts to foul do a 50% water change wait a day then retreat the tank. This kills ich 100% in 2 to 4 days. It does not retard the ich it tottaly eradicates it from the tank

If this does not work I do the same thing with the salt and temps but this time I do a 70% water change and use Clout, be sure to follow the directions for the recommended dosage of clout. Add the Clout about a hour or 2 after the water change.

 

[vinman]

BTw people I did not look at the stock list I use this meathod for Malawi, ans some Tanganyikans and new world cichlids

 

[Avatar]

That would be the nuclear option.

Seems like a lot to unnecessarily subject to one's fishes and hope they endure - I'd be more worried about the treatment than the cure in this case.

It's been proven that Ich dies at 89.5 degrees. Anything above and beyond that including chemicals and salt may make one feel better but it doesn't add anything to the treatment aside from perhaps accelerating the inevitable demise of the parasites. I have read that salt tends to stimulate slime excretions in fish which is always a good thing, but am guessing one can induce that at considerably lower concentration levels. Ich is a heat-sensitive easily treatable infestation - no need to go nuts if and when it appears.

•It has been found that Ich does not infect new fish at 29.4°C/85°F (Johnson, 1976), stops reproducing at 30°C/86°F (Dr. Nick St. Erne, DVM, pers. comm.), and dies at 32°C/89.5°F (Meyer, 1984).

Note: Since the life cycle of Ich is only 10-12 days at 64° F, and speeds up in warmer water, one could eradicate it entirely by maintaining a temperature of 86° for ten days (as an earlier poster indicted they had done) and thereby protect more vulnerable species from prolonged immersion in water this is too warm.

 

[vinman]

I dont think the tetras would be able to take that treatment. I been useing that treatment for about 10 years with out any problems. Ich does die at the temps you listed but it has been known that there are heat resistant strain of ich to live up to 92 degrees. I heard of one case that lived in the high 90's please read

http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/aquaculture/pdf/476fs.pdf

Read post #3
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f17/ich-not-responding-to-heat-treatment-136516.html


another posting in heat resistant ich
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/ich-explained.php

 

[Avatar]

Not buying.

On the web I see your one unconfirmed unnamed source for alleged 'super-ich' from a fish-farm in Florida, and aside from a couple of posts by keepers (one by a newbie), nothing else to suggest that such a thing actually exists other than hearsay. Also have to say that a 3.5° jump in heat tolerance by a simple organism is a bit fantastic and as such it seems just if not more likely that it's an urban myth brought about by mis-diagnosis, operator error and people looking to resolve themselves of responsibility. When I see a lab report indicating that such a thing exists or speak with someone reputable whom has actually experience of such a thing I might believe it - you may continue to believe as you choose.

Your citation by the way is 13 years old. If heat-resistant ich was real it's very hard to believe there wouldn't be much more discussion of it and at least one actual study by someone in a lab, university or even a high school science project that is a great deal more current and credible than hearsay and a few manic threads blaming alleged "super" tomites for the demise of fish. As my Tennessee hill-country roommate once said, "Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see". The only empiric evidence at hand among CCA members suggests that heat is adequate treatment in and of itself for whatever Ich is currently present in the hobby.

 

[vinman]

I know I had Ich that did not respond to trement at 86 dreges, a mater of fact . the water was 86 and they got the ich . I used quick cure and it was still there . I bunped the water to 90 with quick cure and it was gone in 2 days but I treated in for another day and did not change the water for 48 hours latter. I drop the temps a day after I changed the water. That killed it. you can use Metronidazole it is colorless and is a anti protozoan. Clout is great but it is hard on the fish. I dont go above 90% when useing these 2 meds. Most of the studdies that were done say 90% is the perfure temp in dealing with Ich meds or no meds and 3 teaspoons of salt per gal. I use the triple method, salt, heat and meds. To each their own. I like to go with a little over kill and be done with it in four days.

I know I had a friend that had ich for over a month that would not go away. He had fish for over 10 years. I told him I come over to check things out. It was not Ich but velvet. quick Cure did not kill but clout did. So I know where you are comming from

 

[vinman]

http://www.guppydesigner.com/index....eases-of-the-guppy/650-ciliates-including-ich

Here is the Doctor and the article

http://www.koivet.com/a_ich_freshwater_koi_pondfish_disease.html

I got his phone number and see what he has to say. I know another doctor a P.H.D. at University of Arkansas at Pine Bluff he is Professor - Fish Health / Pathology I'm goimng to write him and see if he ever heard of such a thing

 

[thedavidzoo]

Ok, I've read everything there is to read on the internet about ich, it seems. I have had various small bouts of ich in various tanks.
Once I tried chemicals and ended up with all silicone blue. Since than I only use heat and salt.
A few times I raised the temps to about 88 with about 1/2 TBL salt per gallon, for 10 days or so. This always seemed to eliminate it, yet it always eventually returned, sometimes weeks/months down the road. I could have sworn ich was "dormant" somewhere in the gravel/sand in the tank and was just waiting to strike! However, after lots of reading, there is no dormant stage. Ich can persist asymptomatically on the gills of fish, especially ones that have recovered from ich in the past and have a certain immunity.
Now I am treating a tank with 1 whole TBL of salt per gallon and 86 degrees (current heaters won't go higher). I swore I would not go shorter than 2 weeks because this time I really wanted to wipe it out. I must have a resistant type. After 2 weeks, just as I was beginning to drop the temps and dilute the salt because there were no more signs of ich, 2 fish start flashing again, 1 new tiny white bump...Yes, I am frustrated! All I can do is go longer, another week and see what happens. Maybe add another heater to get temps even higher.
Despite all the reading to the contrary, in all my treatments the salt and temps have never seemed to bother anyone, ancistrus, corys, snails, etc. I do have lots of aeration.

 

[vinman]

Yo David, your problem is the temps are not high enough. Get a Jagger heater get temps up to 90 or even better 92 that is the temp I use and my ich never comes back . I also wash all my equipment ( nets, buckets, holding, containers , etc. ) in a bleach solution ( 2 cups of bleach per gal of water ) then I rinse them in tap water after 10 min. Then I re wash everything with 2 cups of vinegar to a gal of water to neutralize the bleach. I let that sit for a minute or 2 then another rinse in tap water. I have multipliable tanks. If get ich in one of my selling tanks then I treat all my selling tanks. if I know if I put a fish in the selling tank into one of my breeder tanks or vice versa a day or 2 before I notice the ich then every tank gets treated and all my equipment.

You maybe curing the ich in one tank and not in another then re contaminate the tanks that were cured, starting a new colony of ich in those tanks or you may not be treating your equipment after a outbreak. Just a suggestion I'm not there to see what your doing.

I have dealt with stubborn ich before. That is why I use quick cure in conjunction with 92 degrees heat and heavy salt. I rather have blue silicone than tanks of dead fish.

Here is my number if you like to talk to me for some help 718 792 2593 10 AM TO 11 PM EST.

 

[Andrewtfw]

Perhaps the cause of the Ick has not been addressed. If you are not currently testing the water, I would check the nitrites, ammonia and nitrate levels. Also make sure there is nothing present in the tank or filter that would remove the medication.
-Andrew

Ok, I've read everything there is to read on the internet about ich, it seems. I have had various small bouts of ich in various tanks.
Once I tried chemicals and ended up with all silicone blue. Since than I only use heat and salt.
A few times I raised the temps to about 88 with about 1/2 TBL salt per gallon, for 10 days or so. This always seemed to eliminate it, yet it always eventually returned, sometimes weeks/months down the road. I could have sworn ich was "dormant" somewhere in the gravel/sand in the tank and was just waiting to strike! However, after lots of reading, there is no dormant stage. Ich can persist asymptomatically on the gills of fish, especially ones that have recovered from ich in the past and have a certain immunity.
Now I am treating a tank with 1 whole TBL of salt per gallon and 86 degrees (current heaters won't go higher). I swore I would not go shorter than 2 weeks because this time I really wanted to wipe it out. I must have a resistant type. After 2 weeks, just as I was beginning to drop the temps and dilute the salt because there were no more signs of ich, 2 fish start flashing again, 1 new tiny white bump...Yes, I am frustrated! All I can do is go longer, another week and see what happens. Maybe add another heater to get temps even higher.
Despite all the reading to the contrary, in all my treatments the salt and temps have never seemed to bother anyone, ancistrus, corys, snails, etc. I do have lots of aeration.

 

[thedavidzoo]

Supposedly the salt kills the ich, not the temp necessarily (unless it is really high). Higher temps just speed up the cycle so the salt can wipe them out faster. But 2+ weeks at 1 TBL salt a gallon? Come on!

I'm getting rid of some bristlenose so that will free up another heater. I'll stick that in my big tank tomorrow.

There is no cross-contamination. I don't do the bleach on the nets, but all my stuff frequently completely air drys for days and ich can't survive dry anyway, I am told...​

 

[vinman]

Supposedly the salt kills the ich, not the temp necessarily (unless it is really high). Higher temps just speed up the cycle so the salt can wipe them out faster. But 2+ weeks at 1 TBL salt a gallon? Come on!​

I'm getting rid of some bristlenose so that will free up another heater. I'll stick that in my big tank tomorrow.​

There is no cross-contamination. I don't do the bleach on the nets, but all my stuff frequently completely air drys for days and ich can't survive dry anyway, I am told...​

Well your doing something wrong to keep getting it back. I totlly eradacate ich in 48 hours even though I treat for 3 days and let the tank stay with the treatment another day. So in 4 days I'm done. You got it for over 2 weeks. It is very simple to cure. I told you what I do and it works 100% . If you refuse to listen to what works you will never get rid of it. So don't bleach any of your equipment. Don't put your heat up to 92 degrees and buy a good heater that has the correct wattage to get your temps up. No just use 2 low watt heaters and hpoe it will get the temps up. Then complain you cant get rid of the problem. That make no sense, does it.

Once I cure ich it dont come back. I don't get ich unless I get it from a new fish shipment.

ich cant live in 92 degrees, Your wrong about temps and salt.

High temps will speed up the metabolism of the ick which will make them go through all their life stages faster. Ich will only die off from meds in the free swimming stages. Getting your temps up to 92 will do the trick fast. High salt thins out the outer shell of the ich to the point that the shell of the ich will collapse.

If you don't want to use Quick Cure which is the fastest and best cure for ich try Metro it is colorless . It only last 8 hours so you have to treat the tank 3 times a day.

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

Then complain you cant get rid of the problem. That make no sense, does it.

Dude, get off your high horse and quit telling everyone they're wrong. You've laid out your treatment here several times, but your opinion is worth no more than anyone elses. Different regimens work for different situations, and just because something worked for you a few times, doesn't make it the golden standard.

If people have solicited advice and you've already given yours, let it go. Most people wouldn't breed 8 different kinds of fish in the same tank and try to sell them as pure. But we know you do by your previous posts. Right now your opinion matters just as much as hers: :jumpy:, so keep baking/medicating your fish and we'll go with a better method of treating the underlying causes of the infection.

 

[Andrewtfw]

Esther- I understand the frustration you must be feeling. It is never easy to have a problem arise and not be able to solve it, especially when it impacts pets. As someone who managed a lfs for ten+ years, I can tell you that there are resistant strains of Ick out there. After not encountering Ick in my tanks for nearly eight years, I recently battled it in a tank containing EBJDs. I believe I caused the problem by causing a nitrite spike due to heavily cleaning the substrate. The tank has a crushed coral substrate which made medicating difficult. I added salt at 1tbs per gallon and raised the temp to 90. I saw a dramatic decrease in the amount of ick cysts on the fish, but it was still present. After adding a UV sterilizer to the tank and letting it run for a week, the ick was gone.
In your case, there must be a cause for the ick returning. It could be the fish you are adding come in with it, or the quality of the water. My suggestion to you is to do a large water change 50-75%. Leave the gravel bed and filter alone, so as not to disturb the bacteria. At this point, redose with salt for the volume of water you changed. I also encourage you to invest in higher wattage heaters. With Christmas at the end of the week, many pet stores (especially online) are having great sales.

I hope you found this post helpful and I wish you the best of luck in ridding your tank of ick.

 

[vinman]

Dude, get off your high horse and quit telling everyone they're wrong. You've laid out your treatment here several times, but your opinion is worth no more than anyone elses. Different regimens work for different situations, and just because something worked for you a few times, doesn't make it the golden standard.

If people have solicited advice and you've already given yours, let it go. Most people wouldn't breed 8 different kinds of fish in the same tank and try to sell them as pure. But we know you do by your previous posts. Right now your opinion matters just as much as hers: :jumpy:, so keep baking/medicating your fish and we'll go with a better method of treating the underlying causes of the infection.

DiscusnAfricans please when trying to prove your point whether good or bad please don't go off topic. You leave the door open for people to go that direction. Sorry David but I had to rebuttal his comment.

As for my tanks I'm home all day long. It is not only my apartment but my place of business. I have the luxury of watching my fish and reptiles all day long. I know days in advance who is going to breed with who because I watch my fish court who they are going to breed with days before they spawn. I been keeping Malawi Cichlids 32 years and when you are doing things that long you should know what can and what can't go together. The fact I keep multipliable males and females of the same SSp in also crucial to prevent hybridizing.

If you like to start a new thread DiscusnAfricans about keeping multipliable Malawi Cichlid ssp in the same tank send me a link as I have a lot to say since I been doing it for 32 years . This is not the place to discuss it.

BACK TO TOPIC PLEASE !!!!!

Sorry DiscusnAfricans, not a few times, for many years I been using this treatment. No high horse here. Sorry you feel that way, Your right you can tell someone what to do and it is their right not to take your advice but kill me for caring. I don't like seeing people losing their fish to Ich when there is a fail safe method to not only kill it but totally eradicate it. Not only has this treatment worked for me over the years but it worked for everyone else that used it. From people that I know in the hobby, people at the pet stores I worked at . I used to run the Fresh water fish dept at one of the stores where I worked. It was my job to maintain the tanks and the fish along with helping put together the fish order. I had to kill Ich in both warm and cold water fish. I came up with this method when I had a strain of ich that was getting worse by the day in 86 to 88 degree water 15 years ago. A lot of advanced hobbies and people in the pet business have talked about strains of Ich that were resistant to standard treatments for years.

I hate to bust your bubble but there is no underlying causes of the Ich. Ich, it is a protozoa. It does not all of a sudden appear because water quality is bad. It does not just spontaneous appear. If you get Ich the only reason is you brought it in with a new fish or it has been in your tank in very low numbers to detect. When the fish becomes stressed the parasite starts to multiply. If you eradicate the Ich you will never get it again no matter how bad the temps or the water quality gets. The only way you will get it again is if you introduce it back to the tank

 

[thedavidzoo]

Thanks everyone. That was interesting.
For now I will be continuing the salt and higher temps. IF that fails, I'll go meds.
It is by no means an "outbreak". I haven't had an outbreak in a long, long time. I see some flashing and 2 tiny white dots if I stare really, really hard at my one fish that seems to be afflicted. Thankfully ich has never gotten to the point of losing any fish, just pops up with a spot or two here or there on a fish or 2.
Anyway, I came across a calculator online through WWM that lets you figure out how many grams/ounces of salt you need at what temperature to get to a specific gravity of 1.002 (although some suggest 1.003) to kill ich. http://homepage.mac.com/nmonks/aquaria/brackcalc.html

It says at 86 degrees I need to have 0.88 oz (25g) of salt/gal or about 4 tsp/gal as 1 tsp~6g. At 88 degrees it says 26g, 90 degrees 28g, and so on...
So according to that, with 1 TBL/gal, I am still shy of that salinity mark, by 25% or so. Thoughts?

 

[vinman]

David you asked for thoughts these are mine

My feelings would be to get up to no less than 90. I would do the 92 because ich is not supposed to live in that temp. I believe that the more resistant strains are from the lack of using meds. When you use 86 degrees and no meds you run the risk of having some ich live at high temps.. Those Ich will breed and you will most likely produce more ich that can thrive in temps way over 86 degrees. 86 degrees just speeds up the metabolism for meds to work. At that temp it will not kill the Ich it will make the Ich reproduce faster. Remember natural selection has a way of changing things. look at the lion fish living off the wrecks off NC. They adapted to the colder water. It is only a matter of time till they become cold tolerant. Fauna either adapts or dies off, that is evolution.

The only reason I know African Cichlids can take those temps is I live on the top floor of a 4 story apartment building . I have no AC . the front of my APT faces the morning sun and the back of my APT gets sun from 11am till sunset. My apt sometimes has got into the 100+ degrees in the summer. I have had my Africans living in 92 to 94 degrees with no problems. Don't get me wrong I sometimes have to do small water changes with cold water to bring temps into the mid to high 80's. This summer I had temps go to 96 degrees with no die off.

 

[hydrodmg]

 

[George]

Lots of high horses and misinformation on this thread. I would say lock it up because there is too much useless here. Oh yes, right on Mike.

My favorite: "Ok, I've read everything there is to read on the internet about ich,"

How do you know? "EVERYTHING"? Did you reach the end of the internet? WOW! How did it look? Was there a bright light?

What baloney.

Bottom line - Tony's fish are fine. Go away and suck on your bottles now.

Time to lock this one up Francine before the flames get someone burned.

Ask me if I care. Please flame me.

George

 

[thedavidzoo]

Hey, I'm just trying to figure out how to best handle ich with all the information available to me. Of course no one can read everything on the internet. Lighten up, dude. I just want to find out all I can. Just in case YOU were wondering (I know you don't care about my situation), my fish are just fine also.
I thought this forum was to learn and exchange ideas, knowledge and experiences, not for folks to get all huffy and condescending.
Geesh.