Dead German Blue Ram!

Felipe Castellanos

Felipe Castellanos

CCA Members
I had a German Blue Ram in a Quarantine Tank with the following parameters:
pH: 6.8
Nitrates: Between 40 and 60 ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm
Hardness: 75 ppm
Alkalinity: 40 ppm
Ammonia: 0 ppm

After 3 weeks (yesterday) it started showing lack of appetite and it didn't eat, the whole day, it was at the bottom of the Tank, laying there while still alive. The next day, I turned on the lights to feed him and found him upside down dead. Any ideas on why this happened and if I have to fix water for the other Ram in the QT tank? I did a 60% water change a couple of hours ago.

Thanks!
Felipe Castellanos
 
mchambers

mchambers

Former CCA member
Sorry to hear that. German rams can be very sensitive to water conditions, unfortunately. I think doing the water change was a good idea. I wouldn't do anything else.
 
stany

stany

CCA Members
I keep them and have had losses for no apparent reason. Started with seven juveniles that grew out to 3M/4F. Rehoused the first breeding pair to my grandson. The rest did well for months. The next breeding pair claimed their end of the tank and breed once that I could see. The sub male took his side of the tank and the two remaining females wandered freely in the tank outside of breeding times. This went on for over a year. One day the non breeding female was laying on the bottom. A week later a sub female was missing,never did find her.. Three months since that I'm left with the bonded pair and a third wheel. Never saw any physical damage on either the sub male or missing female. They are finicky about water conditions and your are in line with mine although I keep the ph around 7.2. May be just unlucky on hardiness of the strain you got. Was this the only GBR you had?
 
CSnyder00

CSnyder00

Bearded Wonder
stany said:
I keep them and have had losses for no apparent reason. Started with seven juveniles that grew out to 3M/4F. Rehoused the first breeding pair to my grandson. The rest did well for months. The next breeding pair claimed their end of the tank and breed once that I could see. The sub male took his side of the tank and the two remaining females wandered freely in the tank outside of breeding times. This went on for over a year. One day the non breeding female was laying on the bottom. A week later a sub female was missing,never did find her.. Three months since that I'm left with the bonded pair and a third wheel. Never saw any physical damage on either the sub male or missing female. They are finicky about water conditions and your are in line with mine although I keep the ph around 7.2. May be just unlucky on hardiness of the strain you got. Was this the only GBR you had?
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I agree. They are some of the kings and queens of MFD (mysterious fish death). I have to say that some of mine were likely due to small chemistry swings that I wasn't aware of at the time.
 
A

abcdefghi

Members
Along with the temperature, where did you get them from?

I have had German Rams just die for no reason as well, had a group of them doing well. Claiming territory, no aggression between them that I could see, digging out pits in the substrate etc. A few weeks later they just started dropping dead.
 
YSS

YSS

Members
No luck with GBRs either. I don't buy them anymore. I had a pair of GBRs as one of my first fish over 20 years ago. I had them in a 20G with a bunch of other fish. Didn't really do much water changes, didn't really know much about keeping fish, and all of my fish thrived including the GBRs. I had plants growing like weeds too in that tank. Now, as a seasoned hobbist, I can't keep GBRs alive for more than 6 months. They just all die eventually. I gave up on them.
 
Frank Cowherd

Frank Cowherd

Global Moderators
Staff member
I have been breeding GB rams for many years (9+) now. They are much more trouble than any other specie I have. Even electric blue rams and gold rams seem to be less trouble, or I guess, more hardy. I am not sure what is really going on. From one batch of fry you do get a whole range of fry from ones that do not grow well to others that quickly grow to maturity. Some never develop color. The fry have to be handled with more thought than any other fry I have. If you make big changes (temperature, pH, TDS, etc.) you loose fry. If you feed too much you loose fry. Live foods are essential for the first couple weeks. To get the longest lived biggest GBR they need a temperature below 78, as stable a water quality as you can provide, and good food fed only once a day. IF they do not grow, you are not feeding enough. But if the tank gets dirty, the GBR do not live long. I have been on the brink of having no GBRs, down to one pair more than once. I have introduced new purchased GBRs to my group to up the diversity twice.

But then I like trying to solve problems. That is why I love this hobby and what keeps me going.
 
YSS

YSS

Members
Frank, interesting that you said below 78F. I always thought they were warmer temp fish like in the range of 82F or above, at least that was my understanding. If that's not the case, warmer temp was clearly one of my issues.
 
mchambers

mchambers

Former CCA member
Frank Cowherd said:
I have been breeding GB rams for many years (9+) now. They are much more trouble than any other specie I have. Even electric blue rams and gold rams seem to be less trouble, or I guess, more hardy. I am not sure what is really going on. From one batch of fry you do get a whole range of fry from ones that do not grow well to others that quickly grow to maturity. Some never develop color. The fry have to be handled with more thought than any other fry I have. If you make big changes (temperature, pH, TDS, etc.) you loose fry. If you feed too much you loose fry. Live foods are essential for the first couple weeks. To get the longest lived biggest GBR they need a temperature below 78, as stable a water quality as you can provide, and good food fed only once a day. IF they do not grow, you are not feeding enough. But if the tank gets dirty, the GBR do not live long. I have been on the brink of having no GBRs, down to one pair more than once. I have introduced new purchased GBRs to my group to up the diversity twice.

But then I like trying to solve problems. That is why I love this hobby and what keeps me going.
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It is reassuring to know that even Frank has trouble with GBRs! I thought it was just me. I've had one or two pairs lay eggs, but I've never seen fry.

They are beautiful fish, but very frail.
 
YSS

YSS

Members
It also may be that the gene pool of GBRs have deteriorated over the years. Like I said the pair I had over 20 years ago were rock stars and I didn't even know what cycling was.
 
Frank Cowherd

Frank Cowherd

Global Moderators
Staff member
YSS, I think a lot of hobbyists keep rams too warm. The longest lived and biggest GB rams I ever have are in a 180 gallon tank with many angelfish, many clown loaches, some variatus, lots of gouramis and some BNs. It is a planted tank with CO2 and added ferts. The temperature is 79, the pH is under 7, and the TDS is around 190. The fish are fed once a day and the tank undergoes a 70 to 80 % water change about once a week. The big thing here is the size, I cannot get GB rams this big in any other tank. And the GB rams here are the only ones still alive from the batch they are from.

YSS, I agree that ram's gene pool may not be as good as it was. I get a lower percent of good fish from a GB ram spawning than from the electric blue rams. Not that EB rams have a great gene pool. The first EB rams I bought were poor quality fish. The second set of EB rams I got were easy to get to spawn and seems to be more robust than the GBRs. That is the reason I buy new pairs of GB rams occasionally.

But on the downside, I still think rams are not long lived. They apparently are considered annuals in their native waters, meaning they only live for a year normally. Some must live a bit longer of course. And they do have some characteristics of annuals in that they become sexually mature in about 3 months and will spawn soon after. In the aquarium with good conditions (slightly acidic, 75 -78 F, and TDS in the range of soft water) they can live for maybe 2.5 to 3 years.
 
YSS

YSS

Members
Thanks for the post, Frank. I have read that the average life span of GBRs is 2 years. First time hearing that they could be annuals.
 
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