iamzrad
Members
Saw this over on another forum.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
F8LBITE
Members
hybrid like a mofo
Dreamsofpeace54
Members
i kind of like it. i know alot of people arent into hybrids, but i think the scribbling of its fins looks neat and the colors are nice too.
dogofwar
CCA Members
Looks like an OB Peacock x Red Empress Hybrid. Not my bag but could be someone elses...
Matt
Matt
Tony
Alligator Snapping Turtle/Past Pres
Reminds me of when a certain retailer was selling OB O lithobates for big bucks. Sheesh.
Give me time to raise 2 generations of haps to subadult size and I"ll make anything OB for you. Ahli, Otopharynx,Copadichromis, Protomelas... It ain't that tough, even for a home hobbyist to cross a male (insert hap here) with a harem of female OB peacocks and then cross the male back with pure females. Whalah! - 3/4 pure, OB whatever.
Hurry up, get the F1s while they last, lol.
Blah.
Give me time to raise 2 generations of haps to subadult size and I"ll make anything OB for you. Ahli, Otopharynx,Copadichromis, Protomelas... It ain't that tough, even for a home hobbyist to cross a male (insert hap here) with a harem of female OB peacocks and then cross the male back with pure females. Whalah! - 3/4 pure, OB whatever.
Hurry up, get the F1s while they last, lol.
Blah.
Avatar
Plenipotentiary-at-large
Remarkable though...
Does this indicate that the 'speciation' within the Lakes is really more 'sub-speciation', i.e., too recent and genetically superficial to often count for much and a bit like trying to say that shepherds and terriers and pit bulls are different species.?
Lake Victoria was a dry lake 12,400 years ago. Malawi has been around for about 15,000. Most of the 'species' in them came from one or a two progenitor species. Someone at the meeting asked "Do they or is there evidence of hybridizing in the wild"? Maybe the question should be have they ever stopped?
If the fry are fertile who's to say that its not all the same fish? Comments. links to papers, etc. appreciated.
The link below is a good primer for anyone who wants to get their feet wet. No one should be be intimidated by any new words - at worst there's probably not more than a dozen you need to learn (or remember if you ever took genetics/biology). Try it - may make you see your fish in a whole new light, or you may be the one newly illuminated:
http://www.wjcc.k12.va.us/lhs/faculty/facultywebpages/faheyd/chapter19.html
Does this indicate that the 'speciation' within the Lakes is really more 'sub-speciation', i.e., too recent and genetically superficial to often count for much and a bit like trying to say that shepherds and terriers and pit bulls are different species.?
Lake Victoria was a dry lake 12,400 years ago. Malawi has been around for about 15,000. Most of the 'species' in them came from one or a two progenitor species. Someone at the meeting asked "Do they or is there evidence of hybridizing in the wild"? Maybe the question should be have they ever stopped?
If the fry are fertile who's to say that its not all the same fish? Comments. links to papers, etc. appreciated.
The link below is a good primer for anyone who wants to get their feet wet. No one should be be intimidated by any new words - at worst there's probably not more than a dozen you need to learn (or remember if you ever took genetics/biology). Try it - may make you see your fish in a whole new light, or you may be the one newly illuminated:
http://www.wjcc.k12.va.us/lhs/faculty/facultywebpages/faheyd/chapter19.html
Tony
Alligator Snapping Turtle/Past Pres
Sam - I'm fairly certain that the fish pictured is a man-made hybrid. The common OB peacock has never been seen in the lake and is most likely a man-made hybrid between a peacock of some sort an an mbuna that exhibits the OB pattern.
Regarding the creation of fertile offspring being a criteria for a species, I believe that this is only for higher organisms. Mammals for sure, but I'm not sure how far the line that rule applies. I believe that cage-kept birds will hybridize and create fertile offspring. Not sure about reptiles or amphibians.
Regarding the creation of fertile offspring being a criteria for a species, I believe that this is only for higher organisms. Mammals for sure, but I'm not sure how far the line that rule applies. I believe that cage-kept birds will hybridize and create fertile offspring. Not sure about reptiles or amphibians.
dogofwar
CCA Members
Great summary of a paper published in Nature on the role that perceived coloration has in speciation in Lake Victorian Haplochromines (links to the actual paper are available at the end of the summary).
In a nutshell, Lake Victoria Haps are really, really closely related...some being "different" from others only in the way that they perceive light!
"Speciation through vision: who you see is who you mate with"
http://arstechnica.com/science/news...h-vision-who-you-see-is-who-you-mate-with.ars
In a nutshell, Lake Victoria Haps are really, really closely related...some being "different" from others only in the way that they perceive light!
"Speciation through vision: who you see is who you mate with"
http://arstechnica.com/science/news...h-vision-who-you-see-is-who-you-mate-with.ars
Avatar
Plenipotentiary-at-large
Huge variation within 'classes' of animals, but species within classes, orders and sub-orders generally cannot interbreed unless they come from within the same 'family' or 'genus', and even then its generally uncommon/impossible (see insects/beetles).
Point I was making is that many of the lake cichlids just aren't very genetically distinct. Anybody can and will basically breed with anybody.
Know what Brussels sprouts, kale, kohlrabi, cauliflower and broccoli have in common? All the same species. Thats what a little hybridization can get you.
Suppose the good news is that if the Rift Lakes ever flatline that it's possible for it to take only a mere 10,000-15,000 years to rediversify. Although if you start with Nile Perch or Tilapia as the progenitor species it could turn out to be a very different sort of deal. Probably safe to say that some of the Rift cichlid species weren't around 500 years ago because the genes being expressed now hadn't been isolated and compounded through selection to differentiate/distinguish them as a 'new' species.
I'm sure I have no idea but the whole dance is fascinating in the extreme.
