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Green Terrors

DiscusnAfricans

Past President
They are probably my favorite fish that I've never kept. They've always been on my list, but haven't set up a tank for them yet.

There seems to be a lot of variation within these fish, and I'm sort of confused about what is a "True" Green Terror. I've seen some Asian line-bred fish with large nuccal humps that don't seem to be representative of the species.

I was used to the type with a gold outline on the caudal fin, but there seems to be variations within this type as well. I've heard "Gold Seam," "false gold seam," "white seam" and a few others. What are the wild types, and what are aquarium-bred strains?

Anyone have pictures of fish they've kept?
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Hi Mike,

I don't have pics but I've kept GTs for many years.

Recently, GTs were broken into two different species:

Andinoacara rivulatus is the green terror most commonly seen in the hobby (with the orange..or white or yellow...trim on its tail). They can naturally have big heads (or kok's as Tony likes to say). Males can get to 12" (females smaller) but tend to get about 9-10" and get really thick. I've kept and bred them in a 55g and in 125g+ New World Community settings. They're less "terrors" on the level of aggression of red devils or Central American fish than big acaras.

The others species is A. stalsbergi, which some call the "True" Green Terror (although the common names make the discussion much more confusing than necessary). These are much less commonly available (although Rapps had some recently).

From www.cichlidae.com:

Andinoacara rivulatus is most closely related to A. stalsbergi. Both species differ from other Andinoacara in the overall shape of adults (dorsal head profile straight, nape curved, tendency to develop a nuchal hump in males vs. head profile more evenly convex; dorsal fin base almost straight vs. gently curved; greatest body depth below anterior vs. middle dorsal fin spines) in attaining a larger size (up to >200mm TL vs. usually <150mm TL in adult males), having more gill rakers on the ceratobranchial of the first gill arch (9-10 vs. usually less than 9) and lacking conspicuous dark nape markings. Andinoacara rivulatus differs from A. stalsbergi in having thinner lips and dark flank scale centers, which form longitudinal rows (vs. flank scales edged with dark, forming a reticulate pattern). In the ‘Goldsaum‘ morph, the bright orange-red dorsal and caudal fin margin is another striking distinguishing feature, but see comments below (compiled from Musilova & al. 2009 and personal observations).

Also (on the topic of A. rivulatus and the Gold Saum variety being different species):

It has not been convincingly demonstrated so far, that the ‚Esmeraldas form‘ is really a species distinct from the ‘Goldsaum‘. They differ chiefly in the more slender shape and the color of the fin margins of the former. Differences in the body proportions are expected in such a widespread, ecologically versatile species and may reflect both ecophenotypic and geographical variation. Although populations with exclusively white and orange margins, respectively, have also been observed, this is often a polymorphic character. Specimens with white, yellow or orange-red margins occur in the same habitat (i.e. Werner & Stawikowski 1985). Additionally, such variation is also known from other Andinoacara.

A species distinction based on such variable features is certainly insufficient, therefore I would suggest to assign both the ‚Goldsaum‘ and the ‚Esmeraldas form‘ to Andinoacara rivulatus until further notice.


They're great fish and you should give them a try!

Matt
 

Tony

Alligator Snapping Turtle/Past Pres
Very cool, Matt. Thanks for posting that up. So I guess the next logical question is that with the species differentiation only happening so recently, how muddied has the LFS/breeder gene pool become over the years?

Have all GT's available become Andinoacara sp. "Petco" or are A. rivulatus and the Goldsaum uncommon enough that this hasn't been an issue?
 

Andrewtfw

Global Moderators
Andinocara Stalsbergi (as Matt mentioned), is rare in the hobby and so it is rather unlikely that a hybrid between it and Rivulatus occurs.

Wild caught terrors from Ecuador are annually brought into our local area through transhippers. It is possible that Petsmart brings them in through Seagrest, but it is more likely that theirs are farmed in the US (Florida).

As for A. Rivulatus and the so called "Goldsaum" being different species, the pet trade does not currently recognize such as being the case. As researchers have noted, variation in color of the fins is commonly found within documented collection points. People who have bred wild caught terrors/saums have also noted this variation.

There is a line bred variation of Rivulatus known as the "Royal Green Terror". This fish has been line bred for color as well as the nuchal hump. In addition to this line of GT, the "balloon" form of the GT is popular in asian countries and is readily available in the US (you can see them in just about every lfs in NYC).
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Really hard to say...but I remember really different fish "back in the day" than you see in LFS today.

My first GTs ("Aequidens rivulatus") circa 1986 were wild, streamlined monsters... I had a 55g and chose a male and female out of the tank. Funny that there were white and gold edged fish from the same import. Anyway, the two fish paired off and bred in the 55g. Just amazing colors. And that the female was the dominant fish.

I remember selling the fish at an auction in Northern Ohio a couple of years later. The bag was marked "proven breeding pair" but the auctioneer said something like, "This looks like two males!"... And a buddy of mine from the club yelled out, "No it's just a gorgeous female." Bidding went through the roof, I think reaching the stratosphere of $50 or so (big money in 1988) :)

I've kept and bred GTs a few times since then but the fish seemed stockier and less sleek than their predecessors. Still nice fish but different.

I think that with GTs - like lots of New World fish - we're just beginning to realize differences among and within populations (within a species). Even though A. rivulatus is pretty widespread, I'd bet that there are some pretty significant differences. And why do some have orange-edged fins, others yellow, others white and some none at all? And it's not so aquarists will have a variety of options!

Matt
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Ironically, the fish we now call A. stalsbergi has been in (and out) of the hobby a couple of times. I'd bet that it would hybridize with A. rivulatus. "Back in the day" I don't think anyone (including me!) knew the difference. Ignorance was bliss :rolleyes:

Not sure how I feel about the "Royal Green Terrors". On one hand, I guess they provide MORE color, hump, etc. than a regular green terror (what most people want). On the other hand, they're clearly different than wild-type fish (that transport me to some stream in Ecuador). But I also like silver angelfish...and not the brightly colored oddities that most people do!

Matt

Andinocara Stalsbergi (as Matt mentioned), is rare in the hobby and so it is rather unlikely that a hybrid between it and Rivulatus occurs.

Wild caught terrors from Ecuador are annually brought into our local area through transhippers. It is possible that Petsmart brings them in through Seagrest, but it is more likely that theirs are farmed in the US (Florida).

As for A. Rivulatus and the so called "Goldsaum" being different species, the pet trade does not currently recognize such as being the case. As researchers have noted, variation in color of the fins is commonly found within documented collection points. People who have bred wild caught terrors/saums have also noted this variation.

There is a line bred variation of Rivulatus known as the "Royal Green Terror". This fish has been line bred for color as well as the nuchal hump. In addition to this line of GT, the "balloon" form of the GT is popular in asian countries and is readily available in the US (you can see them in just about every lfs in NYC).
 

DiscusnAfricans

Past President
Thanks guys! A lot of awesome info here. Very interesting to see various points of view; hobbyist, collector, LFS manager.

I'm not a fan of the "royals" or "balloons" so its good to see the differences, and which are wild-types versus line-bred types. The variations in different locations, or within the same location make this seem like a New World peacock or something. I have a lot to consider.

I will set a tank up for these guys one day, just no room at the moment. I'm not bored with my Old World tanks like Tony is getting either.:p
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
What really cool is that a lot of new world fish are really different between collecing locations (says the guy with 10 "different" convicts...and probably as many different Gymnogeos). The difference is that documenting the fish in a lake (albeit a big one) is a lot easier than documenting the fish of every stream in Central America.

Felipe's site is down at the moment but he has a map of Uruguay with pics of the "gymnogenys-type" Gymnogeophagus in like 30 places. Could be 30 different species. Or one (like they presently are, technically). Why are they all different. I'm sure Mother Nature has her reasons!

Matt



The variations in different locations, or within the same location make this seem like a New World peacock or something. I have a lot to consider.
 

Prince

The ONE who is The ONE
The GT's that I bought and sold and still keep were sold to me a Royal Green Terror's. I figured it was just another gimmick to get more money. My male does look awesome thought. The female can get the Maroney face, her dorsal is white and orange.
 

neut

Members
Good information already.

I've kept quite a few GTs over the years also. My personal experience is that domestic bred, especially gold (or orange edged), aren't bad with other fish (except maybe con-specifics) while wild caught are actually terrors. Even saw a (gold seam) green terror with discus once and they got along fine in that case, not that it's something I'd try personally.

I've kept big male GTs in Malawi tanks to boss the tank. When I did that, they didn't bother with the other fish unless a fight started up and then the GT would go and break up the fight-- perfect! :D

So, at least for me, and except when I had some wild GTs that were very intolerant of other fish, mine have been pretty mellow. But it's one of those things where temperament can vary between individual fish.

As far as which (non-stalsbergi) GT is which, I've found it can be easy to get into arguments over it. The thing is even the experts who are classifying them don't agree on whether the (non-stalsbergi) white edged fish and orange edged fish is the same fish or not, which can cause confusion, depending on whose article (or web site) you happen to find-- and then I've seen hobbyists who think they're experts insist it's this way or that way, even got into a discussion once where a self proclaimed 'expert' insisted they are the same fish because they've come in import boxes together and because he claimed to have seen instances of mixed fry from the same pair. But being imported together proves nothing and a pair of one color producing mixed fry could well reflect the confusion about them and resulting mixed breeding that's been in the hobby over the years. (there was a time years ago when I thought males had the gold/orange edged fins and females white edged fines because that's what an 'expert' told me)

About the best summary I've seen of the history of the naming confusion and current state of classification-- which is that classifying the white edged vs. orange edged (non-stalsbergi) is still a subject of debate-- is this article by well known cichlid writer Wayne Leibel.
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Thanks neut for posting the Cichlid News article.

Reading the "Conclusion" section (I can't cut and paste from it) gives the best summary of the current taxonomy of these guys. In a nutshell, A. stalsbergi is a (new) and valid species. A. rivulatus remains a valid species. Scientists and hobbyists disagree over whether "orangesaum" (which can have orange, yellow, or white edging on its fins) is actually one of the species considered synonymous with A. rivulatus (or something new - a "complex" of different species of fish). DNA work will be needed to understand the relationships among these fish...and whether the people working with them have the predilection to lump them into fewer species or split them into many "new" species.

Another good summary of the situation is available from CRC (PLEASE subscribe to Juan Miguel's Site - it's the absolutely BEST resource on cichlids...and will go away without support from folks like us: http://www.cichlidae.com/docs/membership.php).

In a nutshell, his perspective is that there isn't sufficient evidence to split A. rivulatus into multiple species:

From his profile of A. rivulatus:
http://www.cichlidae.com/gallery/species.php?id=4

Comments: Andinoacara rivulatus had long been considered conspecific with the species described as A. stalsbergi for the insufficient knowledge or disregard of the characters, which make it now so easy to distinguish between these two species. In other words: nobody knew that the Ecuadorian and Peruvian Andinoacara were distinct species. When the latter was introduced in the early 1970s, it was identified in accordance with the knowledge of that time as Aequidens rivulatus.

When the ‘Goldsaum‘ cichlid appeared in the hobby, it was immediately recognized as a distinct species. However, since absolutely nothing was known about its origin, the species remained unidentified and was referred to as Aequidens sp.. Werner & Stawikowski (1985) were the first to discover, that in Ecuador, from where Andinoacara rivulatus and all its synonyms have been described, only the ‘Goldsaum‘ occurs. Therefore they concluded that the ‘Goldsaum‘ was A. rivulatus and the Peruvian ‘Silbersaum‘ an undescribed species.

In more recent years, the identity of Andinoacara rivulatus has been questioned again. Alf Stalsberg from Norway did collect a slightly different fish in the Rio Esmeraldas drainage. From Kullander‘s identification of this fish as A. rivulatus and the erroneous assumption that Rio Esmeraldas is the type locality, he has drawn the conclusion that this was the true rivulatus and the ‘Goldsaum‘ a species of its own. What followed was some speculation, which of the two junior synonyms would apply to the latter, and lately Stalsberg uses the name Andinoacara aequinoctialis as the valid name of the ‚Goldsaum‘ on his website, which has already been widely adopted by North European aquarists. However, Schindler & Morgenstern (2010) have demonstrated, that his conclusions are untenable:

(1) When separating Acara aequinoctialis from Andinoacara rivulatus, Regan (1905) restricted the latter to the largest of five supposed type specimens, while the four remaining were designated as types of the former. Normally, such an action would have to be regarded as a lectotype designation for A. rivulata. However, a lectotype can only be selected from syntypes, and we have found out that the specimen in question does not belong to the type series of Günther‘s Chromis rivulata. Therefore, Regan‘s action is invalid and the four syntypes of A. aequinoctialis retain their status as syntypes of Andinoacara rivulatus rendering the former an objective junior synonym, which must not be used for a supposedly different species.

(2) As the type locality is known no more precisely as "Andes of Western Ecuador" (as per title of the original description of Chromis rivulata), there is no justification for restricting it to the Esmeraldas drainage. Indeed, if the body proportions are really of geographical significance (which has not yet been investigated), the types would better agree with the more southern forms.

(3) It has not been convincingly demonstrated so far, that the ‚Esmeraldas form‘ is really a species distinct from the ‘Goldsaum‘. They differ chiefly in the more slender shape and the color of the fin margins of the former. Differences in the body proportions are expected in such a widespread, ecologically versatile species and may reflect both ecophenotypic and geographical variation. Although populations with exclusively white and orange margins, respectively, have also been observed, this is often a polymorphic character. Specimens with white, yellow or orange-red margins occur in the same habitat (i.e. Werner & Stawikowski 1985). Additionally, such variation is also known from other Andinoacara.
 

neut

Members
Interesting information. I have no particular personal leaning on it, except to wait for the experts to sort it out and for the results to be accepted by official taxonomic registries.

As for Andinoacara aequinoctialis, someone visting Alf Stalsberg's website would get the impression it was a valid or official name, but I've read enough to know it's his opinion, a matter of debate, and only appears on taxonomic registries as an invalid synonym. But it's that sort of thing that causes confusion, or arguments, among hobbyists.

Reminds me a little of Cyphotilapia sp. North. Was suggested some years ago as a name for six stripe northern Cyphotilapia (Burundi and similar) by some who expected them to be classified as a different fish from Kigoma 7 stripe frontosa. Never happened. Despite this, you still see people using sp. North as though it was an official or valid name and you end up having to explain to people that there are two, and only two, valid and officially recognized Cyphotilapia species.

CRC is a great site. Wasn't aware they were in need of more support and I'd HATE to see it go away. After years of doing mostly African cichlids, my interests-- and wish list-- have returned largely to where I started with SAs in the past few years (other than my Kapampa fronts and a handful of other Tang species that still interest me). Not that I can contribute much to the knowledge that's already there, but maybe it's time I register. :D
 

dogofwar

CCA Members
Some folks get really bent out of shape regarding changes in scientific descriptions of fish (and other animals, I'd imagine). What folks need to realize is that there's no "right answer"...only opinions and (generally) better tools and techniques to support these opinions / perspectives.

Especially with cichlids, Mother Nature didn't organize Her creations into Genera and species. It's a totally man-made construct...with as many opinions as ichthyologists (who NEED to publish and describe to progress in their careers) in the field.

In my mind, Location trumps species any day :)

Matt
 

GrantA94

Members
I keep Andinoacara stalsbergi (True GT), I have 6 f1 peruvians ranging from a large male ~5" to females ~3". Here are some pictures of them when they last spawned.
uploadfromtaptalk1345904446474.jpguploadfromtaptalk1345904478959.jpguploadfromtaptalk1345904508402.jpguploadfromtaptalk1345904538554.jpg

Here is an FTS of them in their 135g biotope.uploadfromtaptalk1345904573041.jpg

I think they are often overlooked. Because they are both harder to obtain and keep (well, IMO anyway). Also, many people consider Saums more colourful (granted they are colourful), but I think these guys are the far superior sp.

Finally, Andinoacara is the Genus for the three sp.

Rivulatus (Gold/White Saum) has now been classified as Andinoacara sp. Gold/White Saum.

Which means the smallest of the three sp. (which is yet to be kept in aquaria) is now Andinoacara rivulatus. Common name: True Rivulatus. It was argued to be the same sp. As Saums just from a different local. Having less than 3% difference in genetics it was considered a different sp. much to the annoyment of many.

Finally there is stalsbergi which is such: Andinoacara stalsbergi. Less common than saums (for most at least).

Thats what I consider the true classification of the GT's. :)

uploadfromtaptalk1345904446474.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1345904478959.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1345904508402.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1345904538554.jpg

uploadfromtaptalk1345904573041.jpg
 
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