Who Knows their Ancistrus???

chriscoli

chriscoli

Administrator
Ok, so I got some adult BN plecos from someone a while back and one doesn't look like the others. The pattern is different, and it doesn't have that white tip on it's tail.

Any ideas? Is this just a pattern variant, a different species, a pleco mutt?

pleco1.jpg

pleco2.jpg
 
C

chub_by

Members
Just a variant. I have a bunch and one is completely different than the others although they are all related ;)
 
verbal

verbal

CCA Members
What size is it? I know there is a larger variety or species, but I am not sure of the species ID or origin.
 
chriscoli

chriscoli

Administrator
He's probably a little over 4". I'd say he's the same size as my other "typical" BN.

Well, I'm glad that at least I'm not getting responses like, "eek! what IS that weird looking creature???" :lol:
 
T

toddnbecka

Members
I have common male BN that size w/out any white tips on their tails, that's something they do normally outgrow IME. The "bristles" on that one are quite a bit shorter than any of the common males I've seen though. I have young males 2/3 that size with bushier noses. The mouth and teeth are usually the key features for a proper ID. If you can get a couple close pics that show those you might find someone on planetcatfish who could help.
 
verbal

verbal

CCA Members
I agree that planetcatfish is a great place for an expert id. Pictures of the mouth will be very helpful for that.

It looks a little like a fish on Frank's website(likely a young male or possibly female):

Peruvian Yellow Spot Bristlenose Catfish
yellowspot3_449x355.jpg
 
chriscoli

chriscoli

Administrator
Wow, thanks. I actually DO have a great picture of his mouth, so I'll check out planetcatfish when I'm home later on today.

Frank's pictures sure do look like mine as far as coloration goes.

His bristles have been getting shorter lately ....I strongly suspect that someone else in the tank is picking at them :angry:. My plan was to remove him from the tank next time I tear it apart (which happens pretty frequently) and move him into a different tank.
 
Shane

Shane

Members
Christine,
There are only a handful of "brownish" Ancistrus spp available fairly regularly in the hobby.

The most common, because they are captive bred in huge numbers, is A. cf cirrhosus.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=49
The various mutant varieties available in the hobby (long fin, piebald, albino, super red, Panama red, etc, etc) are all this species.

Colombia commonly exports both A. triradiatus from the llanos near Villavicencio
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=883

Lastly, Colombia exports A. bodenhammeri from up near Cucuta.
http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=1931

Take a good look at these three. In my experience it is pretty likely you will find one of them to match your fish.

If it is not one of these three you will need to contact the retailer and find out who they ordered from. Then you can backtrack to the transhipper, importer and eventually exporter to find out what river system they were collected in.

-Shane
 
Shane

Shane

Members
a pleco mutt?
Click to expand...

I also just wanted to address this quickly as there is a belief by some in the hobby that Ancistrus cf cirrohosus (the common BN) is some kind of hybrid. There are several catfish hobbyists at Planetcatfish involved in DNA barcoding of loricariids and the work they have done shows that all the myriad "fancy" varieties of the common BN are the same species.
This caused us to do some research and I was ony able to find a single documented case of two Ancistrus species hybridizing in an aquarium. This is pretty amazing when you think how common these fish are and how many aquarists are breeding them worldwide.
-Shane
 
chriscoli

chriscoli

Administrator
Hey Shane, THANK YOU! You spoke my favorite word...DNA! (and DNA barcoding) :)

This is a question that has been buring in the back of my head...I I've been wondering how much mucking around with Ancistrus species have we (unintentionally) been doing as hobbiests and how readily hybridization happens in this species.

Thanks for the input!
 
T

toddnbecka

Members
Wow, does that mean that all the hundeds of thousands of cf cirrohosus in the hobby over the last decades are the direct descendents of a small group of fish?
 
Avatar

Avatar

Plenipotentiary-at-large
Hardly unprecedented

Not so very different than a certain hyper-abundant species of primate.
 
George

George

CCA Charter Member and person in charge of the we
I do not remember who got them but when I broke down my fishroom I sold a good number of F0 and F1 BNs from stock I had brought back from Peru. My experience fits what Shane has noted. We find BNs in a location that are obviously the same kind but there are often slight differences in pattern and coloration.

On the other hand I brought home many that we had collected at different locations. It could be a different kind but I doubt it. A good example is apistos. We collected lots of them on almost every trip. They seem to vary just slightly from location to location but are still obviously the same kind of fish. That is part of what makes it fun. It is also why some folks (especially Killi people) want to know the exact location from which every fish was collected.

George
 
Shane

Shane

Members
It is also why some folks (especially Killi people) want to know the exact location from which every fish was collected.
Click to expand...

Catfish people, especially the pleco crowd, are the same way, hence the invention of L Numbers and frequency of DNA barcoding among catfish hobbyists.
-Shane
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
The species concept is really not particularly useful with regard to many cichlids and catfish.

Every stream in Central America has a different "convict" and/or "spilurum/cutteri". They're all different. Are they different species? Who knows? The next 10 generations of scientists can all write their dissertations arguing over it :)

Same with Uruguay: every body of water has Gymnogeos (one substrate spawning and at least one (sometimes three!) mouthbrooding...a chanchito (sometimes 2)...pike(s)...and an ancistrus (or 7!)... every place is different.

Matt
 
Shane

Shane

Members
The species concept is really not particularly useful with regard to many cichlids and catfish.
Click to expand...

I agree totally. The main issue is that the "species concept" and the foundations of taxonomy predate the concept of evolution. Linnaeus's idea of "species" was in line with the biblical concept that every animal was made as is at the time of creation.
Things have changed a lot since then, but we are still grappling with how to define a species, especially as we know that what we are calling a species is really just a snapshot along the animals evolutionary path.
-Shane
 
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