Septemfaciatus or Myrnae or Both

TMSB805

TMSB805

Members
Matt/Jon/Andrew

Finally got around to getting a couple of shots that were decent enough to get an id opinion. The gold color one is the ones in question. My other female looks just like the male pictured but with the dorsal spot. The other male looks just like the female pictured but without the dorsal spot. Let me know what y'all think. I actually have a pair of the septems coming from Jeff tomorrow as well. Interested to compare what i have to those.

Small gold color female(Myrnae?)
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Male septemfasciatus..
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Together for comparison
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jonclark96

jonclark96

Past CCA President
They look more like myrnae to me than anything else, but the snout is more elongated on the male than I would have expected. Where did you get them from?
 
TMSB805

TMSB805

Members
I'm confused then..the male pictured and two others do show red in the body. I've never kept myrnae before but do the males show any red?

I got them from Archaquatics through aquabid
 
TMSB805

TMSB805

Members
i'm confused even more.:confused:I've looked at those same photos in the past and they're really what made me question what i had. Still when i look up Myrnae photos i find it hard to compare my larger ones to those. Nothings worse than not being able to properly id my fish…for me at least.
 
Andrewtfw

Andrewtfw

Global Moderators
TMSB805 said:
i'm confused even more.:confused:I've looked at those same photos in the past and they're really what made me question what i had. Still when i look up Myrnae photos i find it hard to compare my larger ones to those. Nothings worse than not being able to properly id my fish…for me at least.
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Not to add more confusion, but your male in the first pic looks nothing like my male myrnae but looks closer to a male septemfasciatus I had ten years ago.
 
TMSB805

TMSB805

Members
Andrewtfw said:
Not to add more confusion, but your male in the first pic looks nothing like my male myrnae but looks closer to a male septemfasciatus I had ten years ago.
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I agree with you. The male doesn't look like myrnae. I've noticed that a lot of the pics out there on the web of Septemfaciatus vary. I've seen some that look like my male and then some that look like the ones in the link Matt posted.
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
It also doesn't help that both are really variable in coloration depending on conditions / the environment.

In the end, I think that they're really, really closely related species without a distinctive anatomical feature that is unique. So natural range and collection location becomes the distinguishing characteristic...but that's not necessarily known for tank-raised fish.

Some discussion from www.cichlidae.com:

Diagnosis: C. myrnae differs from Cryptoheros septemfasciatus in (1) The presence in both sexes of parallel rows of metallic yellow dots on the scales of the lower half of the flanks, (2) the absence of complete dark bars on the flanks in both living and preserve specimens, (3) the presence of small iridescent blue spots in the soft dorsal and median zone of the caudal and (4) the presence in the female of a trapezoidal dusky zone extending from the origin of the ventral fins upward to a point one scale row above the pectoral fin origin and rearward to the posterior lower margin of the midlateral spot and downwards to a point just above the anal fin origin. It differs from C. nanoluteus in a more rounded dental arcade in both jaws, the absence of dark lateral bars and the suppression of metallic yellow coloration in parental individuals of both sexes (Compiled from Loiselle, 1997).

No unique autapomorphies, but distinguished from other species of the subgenus Bussingius as follows: upper symphysial teeth usually abruptly larger than adjacent teeth (vs. not abruptly larger); gill rakers on first arch digitiform, blunt (vs. trapezoidal or bifid); a diffuse but complete longitudinal stripe, ending in a tenuous blotch on the caudal peduncle (vs. on the fin); lateral spot circular (vs. oval); predorsal scales modally 11 (vs. modally 12 or more) (Compiled from Schmitter-Soto, 2007).

And the ultimate source of the confusion:

Comments: It is not clear when Cryptoheros septemfasciatus was introduced into the aquarium hobby, Stawikowski & Werner (1985: 257-258) show aquarium pictures of both C. septemfasciatus and C. myrnae. At that time, the recently discovered Cryptoheros myrnae from the Sixaola river was considered a color morph of C. septemfasciatus. Stawikowski & Werner also mention that in the United States, both an albino and a golden morph were available, which indicates that the fish had been around at least for some years already. I however have not been able to find older records of their keeping.

Matt
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
I saw some fresh from the river pics a couple of years ago on Facebook...wish I could track them down!

Matt
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
Thanks for posting those!

The color's tough to compare...although male "myrnae", in my experience, tend to be more of a wine vs. a red when settled and displaying non-breeding colors.

All bets are off when comparing breeding color (very, very similar).

Matt
 
TMSB805

TMSB805

Members
No prob.

Seems i'm not any closer to being able to positively id these guys. I've tried to track down the vendor(Arch Aquatics) but no luck there. What would you guys do with them? My main concern is if they spawn i wouldn't know what to properly label them as. Thoughts?
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
Keep them and enjoy them :)

And keep trying to get in touch with the guy you bought them from... he'd have the best idea.

Matt
 
dogofwar

dogofwar

CCA Members
I raise about 5% of the stuff that spawns in my fishroom. Way too much work for way too little reward, even with really rare fish!

Matt

TMSB805 said:
No prob.

Seems i'm not any closer to being able to positively id these guys. I've tried to track down the vendor(Arch Aquatics) but no luck there. What would you guys do with them? My main concern is if they spawn i wouldn't know what to properly label them as. Thoughts?
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Andrewtfw

Andrewtfw

Global Moderators
I believe that the fish I had years ago was the gold form of septemfasciatus. However, it was similar in appearance to the myrnae pics in the link you posted, Zach.
I agree with Matt- keep trying to track down the seller. In the mean time, enjoy what you have. You could also try posting on the forum for the Cichlid Room Companion, if you are a member of that site.
 
TMSB805

TMSB805

Members
Spine said:
Great pictures of the fish Zach.They look like Myrnae to me.
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Thank you Sir!

Andrewtfw said:
I believe that the fish I had years ago was the gold form of septemfasciatus. However, it was similar in appearance to the myrnae pics in the link you posted, Zach.
I agree with Matt- keep trying to track down the seller. In the mean time, enjoy what you have. You could also try posting on the forum for the Cichlid Room Companion, if you are a member of that site.
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I think posting on CRC will get the same responses i've gotten here. I think i'd really have to get a hold of the vender if i want a the right answer but then again everything that shows up on the web with Arch Aquatics seems to be negative... oh well.

On a bright note..posted up a video of these guys
 
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