New and need some advice- high ammonia, no nitrate, no nitrite

[maramc]

Hi, I am having some problems with a newly established tank. In a nutshell, I am having an ammonia spike with no changes in nitrates and nitrites. Hopefully someone can provide some advice.

Here's the history:
30 gallon tank was set up 8 weeks ago. Put in a specific african cichlid substrate which has faithfully kept the pH at 8.2. Used Stability for a week. Ran with an aqua tech filter (20-40) using a filter cartridge from 10 gallon filter from cycled tropical tank. Added two juv. Cherry red zebras and a juv. demasoni. Only checked the chemistry once before next fish were added, but were all zeros.

Two weeks later, put in new right size cartridge and added two more juv fish - yellow lab and blue acei. Checked chem daily and still had all zeros. Added a 30 gal sponge filter to tank.

Two weeks later, added six more fish (all juvies-4 peacocks, Pleco and catfish). I know this amount of fish added at one time was too much. As predicted, an ammonia spike occurred. Had a reading of 4. Did two 50% water changes 1st day, followed by daily 50% since. Got the ammonia down to .25, but gets back up to .5 daily. Then I change 50%. During initial Water changes initially I just added stability, but during the last three changes, I added Stability and Prime.

The big fish addition occurred two weeks ago and my concern is that I never have had a nitrate or nitrite reading. I have shaken the reagents very well today and still had zero. The reagents are not expired either. Shouldn't I have had some kind of reading by now?

I know this size tank tank is not appropriate for mature cichlids but a 75 gallon will be here in 1 month (birthday gift). I figured the juveniles would be fine in smaller tank for a two month period.

So far no fish have died and everyone seems happy (knocking wood)!

So should I have seen nitrate or nitrite by now?
Should I be doing anything else?
Should I continue using Prime AND Stabilty during the 50% water? Do I dose for the amount of water I'm replacing or for tank total volume?
Any other suggestions? I can add a third filter if necessary.

TIA, Mara

 

[Reel Addiction]

To me it sounds as if your tank was never cycled, second if you took a filter for a 10 gallon tank and expect it to filter a 30 gallon with alot more fish that could be a issue. The other concern is the only possibly seeded filter was pulled out by you and replaced with a new one.

Future reference wash old filter with tank water just to get the heavy off. amonia and nitrites are bad things. You should have a nitrate because that what lets you know everything is working well. When the nitrate level gets higher thats when the water changes lowers the number.

Amonia and nitrite should be zero. Nitrate should have a reading. Google fish tank cycle and get familiar with how it works and it will definately help you with future issues.

 

[Ading522]

Filtration is key IMO.. over filtering is always good.. I also agree with what chris said about your tank not being fully cycled.. maybe some people in here can give you some of their established filter media.. you will definitely need a good filter when you upgrade to a 75 gallon.. if you are looking for some filtration, pm me..i have an extra i can sell you.. if not, kens has some good prices on sponge filters, as well as stith aquatics..if you can get a hold of the latter though..

 

[maramc]

I know I have made errors. My tropical tanks never had any issues that i was aware of. I used the 10 gallon filter cartridge from a tank that had 7 or 8 tropical fish, under the idea that the bacteria would populate the substrate (something I read). I also have only swished the right sized filter in the "dirty" water when changing twice, so I have been doing that right. I also am feeding sparingly.

I will continue doing the daily water changes. Would it help to add a 3rd filter? I have two or three HOB laying around.

Again TIA. M,

 

[Ading522]

We all make mistakes.. people around here give good advice.. my experience with cycling tanks where swishing the dirty filter in the new tank water, and adding prime.. lately, i have moved, and it was a big help to read somewhere here on the forum to know that adding the previous water to half of the new water will help with cycle changes.. you could definitely add another filter and then see where the readings go after that.. it has been trial and error in my part, but it has helped me become a better fish keeper..

 

[maramc]

Regarding the cycled filter media, would it be a good idea to use the media from the tropical tank (six months running)? Does it make a difference that comes from a tank of neons and bettas? What about gravel from same tank?

Have the sponge filter (30 gal size) in tank for about 3.5 weeks. Another HOB help? I am kind of struck with the situation and want make sure I'm making it better, not worse...

 

[Reel Addiction]

Id add the sponge filter from the other tank. A new filter (not seeded) will do nothing except turn over more water and not help with this problem

 

[cichlidaddicted]

The tank the media comes from should not matter as long as its a freshwater tank with similar water conditions. Sounds like a problem with getting the nitrification process jump started the reason you have no nitrite or nitrite is because you have no bacteria to convert the ammonia to nitrite then nitrate when you start registering nitrate then you know you have bacteria. This is normally caused by a large bio load on a new set up. Any gravel media or even some decorations from an established tank should help start the process. I use several different bacteria in a bottle as well as prime with good success. Good luck

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[cichlidaddicted]

It is also safe to add a double or sometimes triple dose of prime to help reduce amonia. Keep this in mindvif you have a major spike. Keep up what your doing and get more used media and keep changing water till youbget a nitrate reading

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[Ading522]

Id add the sponge filter from the other tank. A new filter (not seeded) will do nothing except turn over more water and not help with this problem

+1..

i also have good experience with some quick start bacteria..i forgot which brand it was but i think it was API.. although i was scared to use it, so i put in extra than what was recommended.. fish did great..

 

[hollyfish2000]

A few things to get you back on track:

Yes, you did not estabish a biological colony in the new tank. Overfiltering, by the way, is a great thing, but it doesn't help cycle a tank unless one or more of those filters have dirty media in it from another tank.
Running a tank without fish in it does nothing to cycle a tank unless you are using the fishless cycle system in which you add ammonia to kick start the process (which takes 6-8 weeks).

What does the ammonia mean? It means you are in the first stage of the cycle and the fish are in for a rough ride. You will see the ammonia spike up and then gradually fall, meanwhile, the nitrite will spike up (this is deadlier to the fish than ammonia) and then fall. Eventually you will get measurable nitrAte, which means you have a cycled tank.

A few options at this point:

massive daily water changes may keep the bad levels to something approaching acceptable, but often you can't keep up, depending on how many fish you have and the size of the tank

you can use prime to temporarily neutralize ammonia and nitrite, but you can't use it indefinitely

get used media from whatever source you can, get several bottles of Tetra Safe Start (I've had good luck with this) and use more than suggesed. Then you have to STOP the water changes to let the bacteria get estabished or you're just siphoning out what you just poured in.

Pull some of the fish and put elsewhere to reduce the bio load as the tank is being cycled.

Feed not at all or very minimally

Increase aeration with air stones or drop the water level to get splash as nitrite affects the fish's ability to use oxygen

good luck

 

[Tony]

^^^ What Holly said.

Move used filter media from your tank currently set up to your new tank or even better, move the whole dirty filter from your old tank to your new one (without cleaning it). Set up one of those filters you have lying around on the old tank. This should do the trick.

Good luck.

 

[maramc]

Hey thanks everyone for all the advice! I completely realize I'm playing catch up here and want to make sure I'm not doing anything to make it worse at this point. I finally got a nitrite reading in the cichlid tank, so I'm moving forward...

I'm adding gravel from the established tank. Continuing with the 50 % daily water changes based on the ammonia and now nitrite levels. Feeding sparingly every other day (too much?).

I just want to clarify one thing- if I move the dirty filter (and it's DIRTY) cartridge and HOB from the other tank, it won't cause a problem in the tank I removed it from? I have bacK up HOB's I can replace it with. Again it's an six month established tank with Bettas and Neons. It's my daughter's tank and there will be hell to pay if I mess that up. Thanks!

Ps - loving the cichlids! They are so more fun to observe than any other previous tank.

 

[Tony]

I just want to clarify one thing- if I move the dirty filter (and it's DIRTY) cartridge and HOB from the other tank, it won't cause a problem in the tank I removed it from? I have bacK up HOB's I can replace it with. Again it's an six month established tank with Bettas and Neons. It's my daughter's tank and there will be hell to pay if I mess that up. Thanks!

There should be enough bacteria (in the substrate, on the glass, on decor, etc) to cover you. If it were me, I'd do it.

 

[hollyfish2000]

when you remove the filter from a tank, you are reducing the biological colony in that tank. However, if it's an established tank, there will also be beneficial bacteria in the substrate, ornaments, etc. Be sure you put some sort of filtration back on the tank you're "stealing" from. Also, reduce feedings, etc., in that tank as well to let the fewer bacteria "catch up" so to speak. You can also dump some Tetra Safe Start in the tank that is minus its established filter.

(I like Tetra Safe Start because it's relatively inexpensive and it's worked for me. If you can spend another $50 on two bottles, it'll do wonders to get you over this hump)

 

[maramc]

Update- I followed all the great advice given and the tank is in a much better place. This morning I had 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and 5 ppm nitrate.

I added dirty filter and substrate from another tank, added more aeration, used SafeStart, used Prime during the nitrite spike, continued with water changes. Lost the baby catfish, but all other fish are doing fine.

Thanks everyone!

 

[jonclark96]

Good to hear!

 

[hollyfish2000]

good! you can stop the water changes for now, unless you get nitrite and ammonia readings. Keep feeding sparingly until you're really over the hump, so to speak.

have you tested in the water in the tank from which you removed the filter? Make sure that hasn't gone into a mini cycle.

 

[Ading522]

Good to hear! Keep it up!

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[Tony]

Very cool.