need advice on tanganyika mass death in new tank

[judtaaron]

I have had a very serious situation ....... I broke down a 4 yr old reef set up sold off everything and reset up tank for tangs .. its a 240 with a bio sump .... including blk mangroves lava rock and ceramic in three different sections. even have a small shrimp area with hornwort ........... I washed the tank hoses and equipment . I used base/ live rock (dry) no life on it except for some random insects that drowned shortly after instaling .
I configured the tank to be "pretty" rock piled around and up overflows and a trail to the center of the tank with the same base rock.
I ran it for several weeks water parameters are and were perfect for the introduction of fish . Which I did this past mon .......... I came home on wed afternoon and all fish were dead . Not one was floating ....all were down in the bottom of the tank in the sand head first tails up mouths open as far it might go. ............. its been a few yrs since I kept a fresh water tank but I am seriously lost .
I emptied the rock left the sane checked my water again ..... water is great I added some feeder fish thursday night they are still thriving and feeding no deaths !
Any suggestion or ideas or speculations would be greatly appreciated! I lost a total of 17 fish . Thanks in advance

 

[lkelly]

Chlorine/chloramine? Tank not cycled? Obviously something toxic in the water, or perhaps a short in the header leading to overheated fish or electrocution.

 

[fish]

Airation.


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[npbarca]

Did you use any bleach in cleaning? Did you add dechlorinator?

 

[chriscoli]

I'm so sorry for your loss! That's a lot of fish to lose....especially all at once!

Any suggestions would be speculation at this point, but I find that Tangs are much fussier when it comes to water conditions than many other fish. And yes, tangs do seem to die quite suddenly with the most horrible expression on their faces. I've never had an entire tank go like that.....although I've always used existing, seasoned tanks for them.

You mention water parameters, but what's your water hardness like?

 

[judtaaron]

Thanks for your time in helping me figure this out . I am a long time fish keeper started with tangs twenty yrs ago Ive kept them on and off > through out my hobby life.
I didnt use any chemicals in cleaning , water and scrub pads , I used prime as a water treatment , I use multiple heaters to equal the watts I need to prevent heater failure issues . I just now checked the heaters to be sure and nothing unusual .
current temp 78 PH 8.1 (approximately ) GH 15 KH 12 this water is unamended I have not added anything ( sodium bicarbonate or salts etc )
As of now the tank is running almost perfectly. Water is clear feeder fish are thriving they are actually following me when I walk past the tank . I am just so fundamentally lost and perplexed over the massive deaths . I consider myself a serious fish keeper and I double check and recheck. I am at the point as unlikely as it seems I am going to blame the deaths on the terrestrial insects from the live rock that had been outdoors this past season , misc creatures including small centipedes . I cannot come up with any other reason .My theory being given the nature of the fish they tried to eat the insects and were some how injured or poisoned ..................... i would just love a concrete answer grrr !

 

[ddavila06]

did you add all the fish at once? when setting up a new tank you are supposed to add slowly for the parameters to adjust to your fish and not cause a very sudden change.. sorry for your loss. it always stink when we loose something

 

[Raven20]

Sounds like the tank wasn't fully cycled....I'm willing to bet this

 

[daninmd]

sounds like a contaminant, maybe left over from cleaning the tank. where were your rocks stored (you mentioned bugs), was it outside? any chance that the rocks were sprayed with insecticide/weed removed or something like that?

EDIT - just re-read and saw the rocks were outside, so I think they were somehow contaminated with some type of spray chemical.

 

[Localzoo]

sounds like a contaminant, maybe left over from cleaning the tank. where were your rocks stored (you mentioned bugs), was it outside? any chance that the rocks were sprayed with insecticide/weed removed or something like that?

EDIT - just re-read and saw the rocks were outside, so I think they were somehow contaminated with some type of spray chemical.

+1
Not only pesticide or herbicide but could think absorbing anything from the ground when it rained like fertilizer, oils, gas, anything.

Where outside was it stored was in on the ground...


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[judtaaron]

Hi thanks so much for all the replies it gives me tons to consider. The base rock was stored in a rubbermaid container .It had a lid but lid was shifted over and inside was full of leaves and debris and the rocks could have been exposed to rain .I don't use any chemicals in the yard.
Maybe the tank wasn't cycled long enough what is everyones opinion on a fully cycled tank? In my sump I have three sections , first water is collected in a sock /sleeve, in the same chamber I used lava rock about half way up I have free floating hornwort wort with some small inverts / shrimps next chamber is ceramic mico tubes on the bottom about two inches and then bio balls to the very top some being partially exposed , inserted through the bioballs are blk mangrove seedlings about 60 of them , next chamber is empty aside from the pump each chamber is separated with a large sponge . I added several bags of fresh water scuds etc no idea how many (thousands) I ran the tank for about 3 to 4 weeks . Only adding micro amounts of flake food to maintain shrimp and scuds etc . When I introduces the fish I did so with a drip acclimation process I did add them all together . The first two days fish fed swam together ( two species two separate clans ) even were moving sand and to my judgment behaving normally.
The reason i speculated about insects was... it seemed they were impervious to the water the centipedes just walked around as if it were nothing. I figured if the fish saw these walking it would of have triggered them to try and grab it and i think centipedes sting .....so well thats one theory .
I was also wondering if salt from the old live rock would have been a factor now I checked the salinity and it was not measuring but ive considered the possibility the salt level in or near the rock could have been high while the water remained mostly unaffected ? I figured and maybe incorrectly if any freshwater fish could take a lil salt it would be tangs
Keep in mind since i removed the rocks with only sand left the feeder fish I added the day after the mass death are all still alive feeding swimming normally etc.
I am going to try to add some fish this evening i think or tomorrow with out the rock and see if i can slowly add rock back into the system . Maybe ill just read the rock and see how it affects the feeder fish ....but i would honestly hate to loose them too .... death of any fish is a horrible price to pay to gauge a tank's stability . thanks again everyone for helping me trouble shoot this it really does help to have a bouncing board even with out resolution its nice

 

[YSS]

I am also thinking the tank was not cycled. Did you check for ammonia and nitrite? I am not sure whether you can cycle a tank with scuds and food alone.

 

[judtaaron]

water has tested almost perfect but just to be sure i will recheck all the water parameters now , im buying fish tonight from a another member so i need the tank to be solid !
Maybe it isnt any more complicated than i jumped the gun .. and tank isnt cycled that will sux !

 

[daninmd]

I am also thinking the tank was not cycled. Did you check for ammonia and nitrite? I am not sure whether you can cycle a tank with scuds and food alone.

I think he said he tested the water. if it wasn't cycled it seems like it would have been a much slower process to kill them and not so sudden. this was a pretty big tank, and only 17 fish, its pretty lightly stocked. ammonia or nitrite poisoning would have taken a while I think

 

[daninmd]

water has tested almost perfect but just to be sure i will recheck all the water parameters now , im buying fish tonight from a another member so i need the tank to be solid !
Maybe it isnt any more complicated than i jumped the gun .. and tank isnt cycled that will sux !

well I would run a ton of carbon thru your filters for the next few days. if its a toxin that will help. before I did that I would do a 100% water change.

 

[daninmd]

Hi thanks so much for all the replies it gives me tons to consider. The base rock was stored in a rubbermaid container .It had a lid but lid was shifted over and inside was full of leaves and debris and the rocks could have been exposed to rain .I don't use any chemicals in the yard.
Maybe the tank wasn't cycled long enough what is everyones opinion on a fully cycled tank? In my sump I have three sections , first water is collected in a sock /sleeve, in the same chamber I used lava rock about half way up I have free floating hornwort wort with some small inverts / shrimps next chamber is ceramic mico tubes on the bottom about two inches and then bio balls to the very top some being partially exposed , inserted through the bioballs are blk mangrove seedlings about 60 of them , next chamber is empty aside from the pump each chamber is separated with a large sponge . I added several bags of fresh water scuds etc no idea how many (thousands) I ran the tank for about 3 to 4 weeks . Only adding micro amounts of flake food to maintain shrimp and scuds etc . When I introduces the fish I did so with a drip acclimation process I did add them all together . The first two days fish fed swam together ( two species two separate clans ) even were moving sand and to my judgment behaving normally.
The reason i speculated about insects was... it seemed they were impervious to the water the centipedes just walked around as if it were nothing. I figured if the fish saw these walking it would of have triggered them to try and grab it and i think centipedes sting .....so well thats one theory .
I was also wondering if salt from the old live rock would have been a factor now I checked the salinity and it was not measuring but ive considered the possibility the salt level in or near the rock could have been high while the water remained mostly unaffected ? I figured and maybe incorrectly if any freshwater fish could take a lil salt it would be tangs
Keep in mind since i removed the rocks with only sand left the feeder fish I added the day after the mass death are all still alive feeding swimming normally etc.
I am going to try to add some fish this evening i think or tomorrow with out the rock and see if i can slowly add rock back into the system . Maybe ill just read the rock and see how it affects the feeder fish ....but i would honestly hate to loose them too .... death of any fish is a horrible price to pay to gauge a tank's stability . thanks again everyone for helping me trouble shoot this it really does help to have a bouncing board even with out resolution its nice

salt isn't the culprit. not that much trapped and cichlids can handle a fair amount of salt (one way to treat for ich). there could have been some nasty bacteria on the rocks that was growing, I would definetly give them a good soak in some bleachy water and then dechlor heavily before re-introducing.

or, BETTER yet, just get new rocks. you can go to a landscape place and get a ton of nice rocks for really cheap. I stocked my 125 tank for about $25 and it has quite a bit of rock

you can easily sell that old live rock for $2 a pound on craigslist.

 

[judtaaron]

thanks daninmd and everyone else , I am sucking it up that my tank for all my subjective effort is just not cycled . I thought some inverts and micro life with feeding over a few weeks would suffice> lesson learned > I am going to do a huge water change and add some carbon and hope the fish I add can handle the new system .

 

[chriscoli]

If you're not sure that the tank is cycled, you might want to see if we have any members in your area that can give or loan you a seeded filter sponge to squeeze out in your tank. That should provide some extra insurance. And it's a great way to meet club members!

"Pardon, me....perchance, do you have some spare filter squeezings?"

 

[CichlidAddict]

Tangs are always more sensitive to contaminants than other fish. A few years ago, I couldn't figure out why my colonies of Julie and Leulupi were dying like flies in a tank with healthy haps and peacock. Later I suspect that the plastic ornaments I placed in the tank might be the cause and so I removed them all and death was stopped. The ornaments were made for aquarium and supposed to be fish safe but I guess not for tangs.

Another time I placed a silicone glued rock into my tank and within 6 hours, my entire colony of compressiseps died while none other non-Tang fish in the tank were affected. The silicone was cured for 3 days so I wrongly assumed that it is safe for all fish.

A fish friend told me that he had all his compressiseps wiped out in a WC and he suspect the new rubber hose he used was the cause. If your nose can smell new plastic, new rubber or new silicone, it's likely not safe for tangs.