longstocking
Members
Just thought I would let everyone know. N. brichardi is now classified as N. pulcher.
N. Brichardi Now N. Pulcher
- Thread starter longstocking
- Start date
Charlutz
Members
Wasn't n. pulcher used exclusively for the fish sold as daffodills? I haven't kept any of the brichardi :huh: complex for years and lost track of al the variations. They are a fun fish and beautiful. But it takes some research to tell the expensive, desirable ones from the cheap ones. Most hobbyists would be fine with the cheap ones as the differences in appearance can be subtle and the behavior is still intriguing. Nothing compares to seeing the parents mind a cloud of fry.
longstocking
Members
Daffodills is just a trade name for N. pulcher....
Yes, but now all the N. brichardi types are N. pulcher. I'm kind of surpsied at this actually... as they split off some from N. bichardi a while back. Such as N. splendens.... and a whole bunch of others.
There is always something new in terms of these fish. I don't think any of them are that desirable. Easy to spawn fish that have lots of fry. I've always sold any type I had for 4 dollars or less.
One exception....I would say that N. splendens would be desirable since they have fewer fry and are harder to keep. They only have 25 or so fry each time. Makes them desirable to me because of that ! LOL.
Charlutz
Members
I was under the (mis)impression the "daffodil" were the ones with more yellow in the dorsal and they were the pulcher, while the "standard" ones were brichardi. Now they are both pulcher, just different varieties? Never mind, as I'm sure there are lots of varieties. Guess I can read the article if I get too curious. Your buddy Brett posted the name change still has to be accepted in the community for it to be official. Complicated stuff.
longstocking
Members
Yeah I just asked him... he said it's being challenged. I don't know how it could be challenged though. Pulcher is the older of the 2 names and DNA has proved it. This is where politics come in. Let the Europeans argue about it. But, I can't see how the Brichardi would win.
maddog10
Members
This is one of 5 fish that I have (that I took from the warehouse) that is supposed to be a "Daffodil". I keep them in with my featherfins. This one in particular waits for the male featherfin to clean out its bower and then tries to lay claim to it. Actually kinda funny to watch. This is the best shot I have gotten of this fish in 2 months, but i am still not 100% happy with it. About 85% happy!
phishphorphun
Members
Sorry, this is not a pulcher. This is a brichardi. At least as long as I am still breathing. :sign0012:
Tim
Members
N. pulcher has a large distribution in the southern end of the lake. The "daffodil" variant of N. pulcher is found in the Kasanga area. Usually collected at Kambwimba and Kantalaba. The N. pulcher found north and south of the Kasanga area has little to no yellow on it.
Prior to this reclassification, you could tell N. pulcher by the double V on the gill plate, while the N. brichardi had more of a Checkmark or T on the gill plate, like in Bobby's photo. Now they're saying the DNA evidence shows they're all just geographic variants of the same fish. The difference between these fish and say J. regani and J. marleri which are similar, is there's an area in the lake where both J. regani and J. marleri co-exist. This isn't true for N. brichardi and N. pulcher. If there was a spot in the lake where both variants could be found, and they didn't intermingle it would give credibility to the argument that they were two separate species.
Tim
Prior to this reclassification, you could tell N. pulcher by the double V on the gill plate, while the N. brichardi had more of a Checkmark or T on the gill plate, like in Bobby's photo. Now they're saying the DNA evidence shows they're all just geographic variants of the same fish. The difference between these fish and say J. regani and J. marleri which are similar, is there's an area in the lake where both J. regani and J. marleri co-exist. This isn't true for N. brichardi and N. pulcher. If there was a spot in the lake where both variants could be found, and they didn't intermingle it would give credibility to the argument that they were two separate species.
Tim
I realize that most people think DNA is the final judge of whether or not two fish are the same species. However, I would like to suggest that people keep an open mind about DNA testing.... After listening to a friend of mine (who is entering Graduate school for genetics) go on about DNA, alls I can say is its a baby field and geneticists still have a LOT to learn (ie, role out a DNA molecule and it'll be the next best thing to a meter long and people currently think that 90+ percent of that is JUNK DNA, am I the only one who finds that fishy??? the answer is no, as research is starting to go a bit into that area.....). I think we'll find in a few decades time that the field does a LOT of growing and maturing. In a few decades, we may be looking back at all these changes as mere teething troubles......
Having said that, and knowing that even young as it is DNA testing has greatly expanded our horizons as to what fish are related and which are not, I'm having just a little difficulty convincing myself that those two fish are the same species....... In the same family? Sure. Same species? This jury's still out.....
:sign0134:
Later!
Amanda.
Having said that, and knowing that even young as it is DNA testing has greatly expanded our horizons as to what fish are related and which are not, I'm having just a little difficulty convincing myself that those two fish are the same species....... In the same family? Sure. Same species? This jury's still out.....
:sign0134:
Later!
Amanda.
longstocking
Members
On a slightly different note. There are two new species....
N. walteri and N. chitamwebwai
The scientist will argue the N. pulcher thing for a while. What it comes down to is if it accepted in the scientific field... meaning the pro's.
N. walteri and N. chitamwebwai
The scientist will argue the N. pulcher thing for a while. What it comes down to is if it accepted in the scientific field... meaning the pro's.
D
daniel4832
Guest
Sarah,
Wow! leave for a weekend and the whole fish world gets changed. Do you have a link for the article?
Thanks,
Daniel
Wow! leave for a weekend and the whole fish world gets changed. Do you have a link for the article?
Thanks,
Daniel
longstocking
Members
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/...m.php?news=1426
I haven't been able to get a hold of the original paper. But I know a few people that are trying to get a hold of it.
I haven't been able to get a hold of the original paper. But I know a few people that are trying to get a hold of it.
longstocking
Members
ltrepeter2000
Members
Just picked up a pair of these from a gentleman that had to move. They are really amazing little fish. Placed them in a 30 all by themselves so hopefully I can get a few broods out of them. Really enjoying them.
D
daniel4832
Guest
Sarah,
Thank you very much for the link to the paper. I plan on reading more on this subject, but my first objection is the behavior differences between N. brichardi and N. pulcher. I have found that the refined set up of helpers in the different types of N. brichardi compared to N. pulcher, has been absent or very rudimentary at best. While every type of N. brichardi that I hae bred has had helpers and ended up taking control of any tank they have been in, including a 125 where the Frontosa were pushed into a corner of the tank, (funny sight).
When breeding N. pulcher types, if the tank was large enough I may get a couple of breeding groups but I have not seen younger fish actually helping the breeders, at best barely tolerated, usually up in a corner, or killed. Once the adults were ready to breed again, the older fry were always chased away.
You have bred a number of both types, what has been your observations?
Anyone keeping these fish, what have been your observations?
Thanks,
Daniel
Thank you very much for the link to the paper. I plan on reading more on this subject, but my first objection is the behavior differences between N. brichardi and N. pulcher. I have found that the refined set up of helpers in the different types of N. brichardi compared to N. pulcher, has been absent or very rudimentary at best. While every type of N. brichardi that I hae bred has had helpers and ended up taking control of any tank they have been in, including a 125 where the Frontosa were pushed into a corner of the tank, (funny sight).
When breeding N. pulcher types, if the tank was large enough I may get a couple of breeding groups but I have not seen younger fish actually helping the breeders, at best barely tolerated, usually up in a corner, or killed. Once the adults were ready to breed again, the older fry were always chased away.
You have bred a number of both types, what has been your observations?
Anyone keeping these fish, what have been your observations?
Thanks,
Daniel
Charlutz
Members
Point taken Daniel, but there is a significant variable introduced -- you are talking about fish in an aquarium rather than in the wild. Maybe it's a better indication of species identity that they behave one way in the wild and another in the aquarium. Or maybe it's insignificant. I didn't read the paper. Can you confirm that it was addressing wild behaviors? I made this assumption. Just thinking back to our discussion of julie and altolamp trios which I believe you indicated do not happen in nature, but only in the aquarium.
D
daniel4832
Guest
Charlie,
Yes, I am stating behavior observed in the aquarium, but I found it interesting that all my N. brichardi types acted one way, and all my N. pulcher types acted another, and yes I do realize this is only anecdotal observation.
Take the time to read the paper it's not too bad, but there is very little on behavior, and seems to me at least some confusion in at least two areas of the lake where the two may overlap. My personal opinion, and this is only my opinion, is the N. brichardi did evolve from N. pulcher becoming a more successful breeder by developing a colony style of breeding. This behavior in itself would seem to be enough reason to separate the two.
On an emotional note, I would hate to see the name changed of one of, if not the most successful, fish in the lake from brichardi, named after the man who opened this lake to us, the hobbiest.
Thanks,
Daniel
longstocking
Members
I bred pulchers quite a while ago. But, from what I remember I only had a pair in the tank. At that time I was keeping them in 20 gallons. Now I prefer 30 gallons. The 20 gallon didn't allow for much room. I sold the fry and parents pretty early on ... so I didn't really get a chance to observe much. But, from what I remember, I agree with you... they weren't "as" tolerant.... but this could have been due to the size of tank as well.
I noticed this same behavior in N. splendens. Not as tolerant.... but when I bred these I found them to be the most evil type of pulcher/brichardi I have kept ( they wouldn't tolerate anything over 3/4ths of an inch). You bought some of these a while back... did you notice the same thing in the f1's? I know you said you were just going to sell them.... but maybe you bred them? But these are really quite different from all the rest. Shorter bodies, smaller broods etc. But... these were once classified as brichardi. The were split off about 3-4 years ago I think.
I noticed this same behavior in N. splendens. Not as tolerant.... but when I bred these I found them to be the most evil type of pulcher/brichardi I have kept ( they wouldn't tolerate anything over 3/4ths of an inch). You bought some of these a while back... did you notice the same thing in the f1's? I know you said you were just going to sell them.... but maybe you bred them? But these are really quite different from all the rest. Shorter bodies, smaller broods etc. But... these were once classified as brichardi. The were split off about 3-4 years ago I think.
D
daniel4832
Guest
Sarah,
While I didn't breed the fish I got from you, I have breed most of the known "brichardi/pulcher" types, including those such as N. splendens (I have a problems with Ad Konings including N. "helianthus" in this group, but that's a whole other subject) which were removed from the group. Only those fish with with the "T" markng have bred in colonies and none of the others have.
I agree with you totally about the N. splendens being one of the less tolerant "evil" fish towards their fry, but the worst, IMO, is N. falcicula "Walteri" one day happly leading their fry around the tank, the next day hunting them down like the "Terminator".
Thanks,
Daniel