inspired to try mbunas

[HermsTheWord]

I saw Dave's awesome presentation at Saturday's meeting, and though I haven't kept many cichilds, I was inspired to convert my 55-gallon tank into a mbuna tank. I am still in the beginning stages of planning the tank, but I wanted to get some stocking suggestions from the wise folks of the club, given that these will be my first time keeping mbunas. Would this stocking list be appropriate for a 55-gallon--

Pseudotropheus Demasoni, 2M, 10 F
Labidochromis Caeruleus, 1M, 4 F
Labidochromis sp. Hongi, 1 M, 4 F

Would these species be compatible? Well, as compatible as aggressive cichilds can be? Would the tank be overstocked? Are there other species of "beginner" mbunas that you would recommend as a substitute?

How would I introduce the species to the tank? Should I put them all in at the same time and let them sort out territory and dominance? Or should I introduce one species, let it get established for a couple of weeks, and then introduce a second species?

And lastly, would bristlenose plecos and cories be OK to keep as bottom feeders/algae control in a mbuna tank? What about nerite snails?

Thanks!

 

[hollyfish2000]

I am anti demasoni because I don't like fish that try to kill each other. I would encourage you to substitute something in the same color scheme but infinitely easier to keep: p acei. You can do the yellow tail version or white tail version (I have the later) and they are active, pretty but not murderous. You do not need to worry about gender ratios.

I'd also endorse your yellow lab group. They are so flexible and pretty and non-murderous. Find a really good vendor so you get clean labs without shadows or bearding.

I don't know about hongi, so can't comment.

You need to do synodontis rather than cories. Something small like petricola/lucippnis in a group of 6-8 is perfect.

You could do a BN in a lab and acei tank. I wouldn't do it in a demonsoni tank.

As for stocking -- I have a well rocked and something planted 45 with six acei, five labs, one male ruby red peacock and 8 petricola. It's a great tank.

 

[Frank Cowherd]

If you have enough hiding places even a large group of demasoni are fine together. What happens in a mbuna tank depends on space and hiding places and the numbers of each sex. I use lots of short PVC pipes on the bottom, not very decorative but I have no loses of fish due to aggression. You can do the same with decorative caves and rocks and if you can do it even higher in the tank the better. The PVC pipes have the advantage for the fish of being able to go out the other end. Caves do not. Holey rocks might be better or lots of rocks that form natural tunnels and recesses. Uniform rocks like slate, pavers, any flat rock can be used to form structures with lot of hiding places. You could even hid PVC under some of the rock.

The downside of all this is you have to take it apart to catch the fish. Then rebuild it.

 

[jonclark96]

Herman:

I'm in the beginning stages of keeping mbuna as well (I've had my tank set up for about a year). I don't know much about them, but from what I've read, I'd start with some of the less aggressive species. My tank has groups of yellow labs, rusties, and a couple of left over afra (or zebroides, or whatever they are these days). The tank is active and I've only lost one fish to aggression. I also have a couple of petricola in the tank.

One of the things that I read early on, and I am sure that our more experienced mbuna keepers will chime in, is that you shouldn't keep multiple species of the same genera in the same tank to minimize hybridization.

 

[Reel Addiction]

Frank offered very good ideas if you were to give it a try. For just starting out Id have to go with Jon's idea about grabbing something less aggressive. Im sure whatever you decide and take the great advise everything will turn out fine. Good luck!

 

[verbal]

One thing that would give you a similar color scheme to the demasoni/yellow lab combo is pseudotropheus saulosi. The males are similar in scheme to demasoni and the females are yellow.

 

[jonclark96]

One thing that would give you a similar color scheme to the demasoni/yellow lab combo is pseudotropheus saulosi. The males are similar in scheme to demasoni and the females are yellow.

Good idea! And I think that one of our members (maybe Alan) posted up a successful spawn recently. Hopefully there will be some fry available in the near future!

 

[Leffler817]

I do not think you can do both yellow labs with the Hongi as they are both labidochromis. I believe they would hybridize. If you wanted a 'warmer' colored fish you could try a nice line of rusty cichlids.

 

[CichlidOWNR]

I have 7 Saulosi ready to go to a new home right now. Have another batch that should be ready shortly as well (stripped these a week or two after the 7). Need to make room for the new fry I stripped this week. The seven are about 3/4 inch to an inch in size. Saulosi are great Mbuna to start with and since they are considered a dwarf fish you can stock more of them in a 55. Right now I have 12 Saulosi, 9 Rusties, 6 Syndontis Lucipinnis and 3 Ancistrus Triradiatus in my 55 gal.

Pm me if you are interested in the Saulosi.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using MonsterAquariaNetwork App

 

[HermsTheWord]

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone! Alan, I'm still in research/prep mode right now, so I'm not ready to acquire any fish yet. But I likely will be in the market in the next couple of weeks, so I'll be sure to check with you. My goal is to have the tank set up by Thanksgiving.

What about water parameters? I'm reading about Malawi salt mixes. Do I need this, or will the mbunas adapt to DC tap water, which as I understand, is of moderate hardness?

 

[CichlidOWNR]

Hernan,

Just let me know when the time is right and if Saulosi is the direction that you have chosen to go with. I have plenty (the 7 fry I mentioned and 14 fry that are week or two younger plus the 19 I stripped last weekend). I held off posting that they are available due to my schedule this past weekend and this coming weekend with family being in town. I have plenty to go around in a couple of weeks when my schedule settles down a bit.

Another benefit with Saulosi is that you can have multiple males in a 55 gal (I currently have two mature males). My sub-dominate male does get chased some but isn't the worse for wear. My plan is to get a third male to mature and will be adding females to keep the 1:4 ratio. I also introduced BN pleco's, they were curious the first night but know ignore them. Saulosi are really nice looking fish with good temperaments. They primarily chase instead of harass to death as other mbuna do, just give a lot of hiding places.

 

[chriscoli]

Saulosi are also on the CARES list, so by getting them from another breeder (not the wild), keeping them, breeding them yourself, and selling the fry, you'd be helping to preserve this species.

Demasoni are the only other Pseudotropheus on the CARES list right now.

 

[Rasta Fish]

The two Labidochromis will Hybridize

I would recommend the Ps. Saulosi as well, the Iodotropheus Sprengarae Rusty, and DEF..recommend the Labidochromis sp. Hongi they are NICE!!! ..

OR ...You can add a group of Victorian in there with 2 groups of Mbuna

Want to try something KOOOL
Pseudotropheus sp. ''Elongatus Spot'' Hai Reef ''Jewel Spot''

 

[chriscoli]

I've had both Rusties and Hongi....they will end up looking VERY similar in the tank. The dominant male Hongi will look different, but the females and subdominant males will look a lot like Rusties color-wise.

 

[WendyFish]

I'm gonna be a bit contrarian here; I'd suggest that hybridization is about the fishes' conspecific perception more than it is about what human beings happen to call a fish.

Not to put words in Dave's mouth, but if there's anything I took away from his talk (and Ad's talk the last time I saw him speak on cynos) is that mbuna classification is a hot mess.

Examples: what is the original cyno? Afra, Aurifrons, etc.? Various other mbuna changing genera - things going into or maybe misclassified in melanochromis... things moving into or out of pseudotropheus... a classification system that Dave noted is loosely based on tooth shape and feeding habits but doesn't necessarily hold across currently classified members of that genus.

I'm admittedly not a scientist, but the talks I have heard suggest the science on this is still developing, and it's all a certain amount of observation, comparing to long dead holotypes, and trying to analogize different things as best possible across diverse collection points.

My experience is that as long as disparate species both have sufficient numbers of females and they don't have similar enough body shape and coloration, they probably won't hybridize. Witness one of the most common hybrid problems in all of beginner mbuna keeping, red zebras and yellow labs, which although NOT the same genus, love each other quite well due to bright colors and reasonably similar body shapes.

I don't necessarily disagree with the advice on the yellow labs and hongi, nor do I think it's obviously out of the question; absent anyone having tried it who can speak to it, I don't think it should necessarily be dismissed out of hand based on the genus. Given their coloration, if I really loved both fish to be honest I would give it a try, though I would be ready to give it up the first time they crossed.

For my account, I try to discourage people from keeping yellow labs. Either they aren't really meant to be flawlessly yellow, or they are so stressed in captivity or inbred over time, but I've found it more or less impossible to procure a decently gender balanced group that looks nice and breeds true. There are so many more beautiful and not totally hateful mbuna to spend your time on, for me I'm done with these guys.

 

[WendyFish]

What about water parameters? I'm reading about Malawi salt mixes. Do I need this, or will the mbunas adapt to DC tap water, which as I understand, is of moderate hardness?

Not sure if anyone addressed this yet... I started out keeping all my mbuna in Malawi buffered water, to the full Seachem recommended amount. I dropped them down to half that amount, which is where I keep them now, and I'm sure they'd actually be perfectly fine in Fairfax County tap water. The only fish I've ever had that reacted adversely to moving to tap water were juvie Tangs - very young julidochromis - that experienced it (unintentionally) rather suddenly...

 

[chriscoli]

I use the 1/2 t marine salt/1 t baking soda/1 T Epsom salt recipe that can be found various places online.....but I add one "batch" of the above recipe to 20 gallons instead of 5 like many places recommend. Every few months I skip adding it (or add 1/2 my normal amount) to make sure the salt levels don't creep up on me.

Honestly, I think as long as your water is on the hard side, you'll be fine with whatever.

I don't always raise my African cichlid fry in the extra salt mix and they seem fine.

 

[hollyfish2000]

I use straight tap in my African tanks, although I also have crushed coral and lace rock in the tanks.

Hey -- don't hate on the labs!!!!! I think they are a very versatile fish that go well in a variety of set-ups, are hardy and easy to care for, and I've had some gorgeous ones in the past the bred spotless, perfect (and happy) babies. Right now, I have a few that are perfect and a few with a bit of shading. But I still like them . . .

 

[HermsTheWord]

Thanks again for all the feedback and continuing advice! It's crazy, when I joined CCA a year and a half ago as a newbie hobbyist, I was pretty intimidated by cichlids and didn't think I would ever keep them. (I joined mostly because Silver Spring is a lot more convenient for me to get to than Fairfax for PVAS meetings, which I can only make sporadically.) And now here I am, thinking about setting up a mbuna tank.

One more question....for substrate, the tank that I'm thinking about using has Fluorite as substrate, which I'm guessing is not good for mbunas. Do I need that specialized cichlid sand that I see costs $$$$, or can I just go with silica sand from Home Depot?

 

[CichlidOWNR]

Pool Filter Sand, which is silica sand, is a very commonly used substrate. This may be the same that you had mentioned with Home Depot. I use PFS in my tank and got it from a pool supply store. It might be cheaper at a pool supply store. There are some color differences between PFS some lighter than others. PFS is also very easy to rinse prior to placing in the tank.

PM me and I will let you know the pool supply store I got my PFS from. My PFS is tan in color and goes well with my river rock for reference.