Greengirl
Members
It turns out I have a male and female pair of calico bristle nose plecos. (Thanks Christine). Would someone mind bringing a pleco cave for me to acquire at the holiday gathering? I'd like to see what happens.
festaedan
potamotrygon fan
congrats, how big are they?
chriscoli
Administrator
Yay, congrats! The ones you got from me were actually a cross between a female ABN and a LF calico male, but I would not call them calico since they turned out LF brown.
I'm looking forward to seeing how the offspring of these guys come out....it'll be interesting to see if any of the red pigments are preserved. I still see a lot of warm color in the tails of the ones I kept, so I suspect the genes are there....
toddnbecka
Members
The genes are there, it's just a matter of breeding them and seeing what turns up. I started with a half-dozen regular browns several years ago. Kept a trio in a 30, they produced about 1/3 albino offspring. A few of those grew out here and started spawning. I found brown, albino, calico, and even a couple super red among the fry in a 40 breeder, and the breeding size adults were all brown offspring from that original trio. Their super red offspring have now grown out to breeding size, and I need to separate them and see if they'll breed true. There are also a few of their brown, albino, and calico siblings currently sharing that tank. I have seen new fry, but haven't taken a close look at the color mix/ratio, and don't know who the actual parents are.
chriscoli
Administrator
I would argue that you can't know that the genes are there unless you see the trait in the parents or you know your parent's lineage in depth...and even then you may not know for sure if an individual fish is carrying one or two copies of the gene until you see their offspring. If they have two copies of a recessive gene for a particular trait, there's no way to bring that back aside from waiting for a random mutation (and you'll be waiting a long time), or introducing new genes from another fish. And this just covers traits that are governed by simple Mendelian rules! Many traits are interlinked, which then gets even more complicated.
From what I've been hearing from several of our past speakers is that the super red/calico traits were not originally found in common BN's, the current scuttlebutt is that it was introduced through hybridization with a non- cf. cirrhosis Ancistrus sp. I suspect that most run of the mill brown Ancistrus still won't have those genes, but more will be showing up over time as calicoes and super reds get crossed back into the average brown/albino population.
Todd, It sounds like you got a great deal with those fish!
From what I've been hearing from several of our past speakers is that the super red/calico traits were not originally found in common BN's, the current scuttlebutt is that it was introduced through hybridization with a non- cf. cirrhosis Ancistrus sp. I suspect that most run of the mill brown Ancistrus still won't have those genes, but more will be showing up over time as calicoes and super reds get crossed back into the average brown/albino population.
Todd, It sounds like you got a great deal with those fish!
toddnbecka
Members
I'm not sure about the hybrid theory, but since nobody can trace the common BN back to any wild-caught species it's possible that they're the convicts of the Ancistrus genus. However, it seems to me the calico and super reds are just browns with less brown pigment. Just like dog fur, the colors are all there, but depending on the genes some aren't always visible, and in regular browns the red is covered completely. While albino's lack the genes for pigment, why couldn't the super red in particular have an underactive brown pigment gene? I have noticed that at least some calico's have dark brown bellies, as opposed to the browns with lighter colored bellies, and the super reds also have a lighter colored belly. Different distribution of pigment?
The other thing that gets me, the super red strain originated from brown stock in Germany a few years ago. I have been breeding some from that line in other tanks. I had the original brown breeding stock long before anyone had even heard about the super reds in the US, and there certainly weren't any super reds from Germany in their family tree. The super reds from their offspring must have turned up the same way as the German stock originated. Incidentally, the largest and best-looking male from the German stock produced all brown fry when bred with (the only) 2 females from the same line. I sold him along with a couple other extra males. There were 2 smaller males left that did eventually grow as large, just more slowly, that do produce all super red fry.
Even among the line-bred super reds I've seen quite a bit of variation in growth rate and sexual maturity size. Some males grow quite a snoutfull of "bristles" at a much smaller size than others, and I've found new fry in growout tanks from fish I would have thought months away from spawning size.
The other thing that gets me, the super red strain originated from brown stock in Germany a few years ago. I have been breeding some from that line in other tanks. I had the original brown breeding stock long before anyone had even heard about the super reds in the US, and there certainly weren't any super reds from Germany in their family tree. The super reds from their offspring must have turned up the same way as the German stock originated. Incidentally, the largest and best-looking male from the German stock produced all brown fry when bred with (the only) 2 females from the same line. I sold him along with a couple other extra males. There were 2 smaller males left that did eventually grow as large, just more slowly, that do produce all super red fry.
Even among the line-bred super reds I've seen quite a bit of variation in growth rate and sexual maturity size. Some males grow quite a snoutfull of "bristles" at a much smaller size than others, and I've found new fry in growout tanks from fish I would have thought months away from spawning size.
chriscoli
Administrator
I totally agree with you about having to selectively breed remove the brown pigment to reveal the reds underneath, but the calicos and super reds aren't just absence of melanin....they likely involve a different mutation that allows over expression of the red pigments.
I bred regular brown BNs for a while and never saw any hint of red....the over expression just wasn't there. I did get several that could have easily led to a green dragon type, though.
I've noticed the variability in super reds, as well, and mine have a tiny splotch of brown in the tail....pretty normal to find on them from what I've heard from others.
I bred regular brown BNs for a while and never saw any hint of red....the over expression just wasn't there. I did get several that could have easily led to a green dragon type, though.
I've noticed the variability in super reds, as well, and mine have a tiny splotch of brown in the tail....pretty normal to find on them from what I've heard from others.
