Discus and....ICK?

[breeia]

One of my babies had three white spots on his tail fin. The first spot was at the edge, so I waited a few days as I wasn't 100% sure it might not be fin damage, but alas, two more spots appeared on the tail fin. At this point I decided I had some sort of ICK or other protozoan impacting my fish. I determined to treat with Aquari-Sol which is supposedly a mild medication but apparently a copper solution. In the 4 days since I began treatment the two new spots have gone away but the original "spot" on the edge of the fine remains. No other fish in the tank has exhibited any spots or distress. This discus in fact does not exhibit distress. He (I use the term loosely as I am terrible at sexing Discus) is by far the largest fish in the tank. I spoke to my LFS owner today because I really HATE adding chemicals to my tanks, and he said it was normal for the treatment to take 8 days or so. I've also considered adding a UV sterilizer to my system but am not quite sold. My question is, is there anything else this could be? Also, what are your opinions on both UV sterilization and copper treatments? It is also odd that he is by far the largest fish and is the one exhibiting symptoms- I always thought weaker fish exhibit first. Let me take a moment to describe my tank - 55 Gallons, 10-20% daily water change, 1 discus (the diseased fish) at about 6 inches, 1 discus blue diamond high fin at about 3.5 or 4, 8 "tangerine" discus babies ranging in size from a quarter to a half dollar, and 6 cory cats (juvies). The tank is kept warm (82-84). (and yes another tank is cycling for the babies as they grow out- in the end I plan to keep four or five adult discus in my 55). It's a peaceful tank. crystal water. I haven't had ick for 10 years! Am hesitant to raise the temp further because of the corydoras. They have acclimated, but as they are currently housed in a "diseased" tank, I don't want to move them, plus some of the 90 degree F recommendations I have read on the internet seem odd. Everyone is of proper color and eagerly eating from my hand. Gosh- this is long, but thank you for reading and any recommendations/experiences/advice is greatly appreciated! My Discus have NEVER had Ick--and by the way does anyone have an opinion on how it was introduced into my tank?

 

[YSS]

If you haven't added anything new to the tank, then it can't be ick.

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

If you haven't added anything new to the tank, then it can't be ick.

I don't think this is true. From what I know the organism that causes ick is in every tank, and any fish that is stressed can acquire the disease by compromised immunity. Usually new introductions are the most likely cause, but not entirely.

I've used sterilizers before, but I can't really say how much they work. they supposedly kill the organisms that cause algae blooms and such, but it won't necessarily help sick fish other than removing harmful microorganisms.

A diatom filter would be good to run. They polish the water and can actually remove the microorganisms and other parasites. With the water changes and maintenance you've described it doesn't sound like ick, but I can't tell you what it really is.

 

[breeia]

Thank you for your advice. Nothing is new in the tank. My big guy
(diseased fish) is light sensitive- and the hubby sometimes in the morning does turn on the lights in the improper order sometimes. But it doesn't seem like a stressed fish to me. I've kept discus for a number of years and stress is normally extremely apparent (i.e. they turn dark and hide in the corner). This guy eagerly takes food and is the blue color he is suppose to be. Could he be stressed during lighting changes (causing ick) while act normally the rest of the day?

 

[breeia]

Thank you for the advice discusafricans. I think I have a diatom filter and will look to set it up. Do you have an opinion on copper solutions?

 

[breeia]

YSS: Yes- that is kind of what I thought. Introduced the cordoras about 2 weeks ago but they were quarantined for two weeks prior to introduction and none of them show symptoms. My concern is that I have a stressed tank or some little bugger that is infecting my discus and I can't identify it . In your experience with discus could another protozoan be the cause? I think I need to set up the diatom filter......

 

[breeia]

Ok I'm Obnoxious....but the Aquari-sol (mild copper solution) should I continue it's use? Going away for the weekend and hubby is in charge of the fish. Must give exact instructions. Water changes until Sunday will not occur.

 

[DiscusnAfricans]

Thank you for the advice discusafricans. I think I have a diatom filter and will look to set it up. Do you have an opinion on copper solutions?

I don't like copper solutions because of it turning the water green. Smaller cichlids and some catfish are also very sensitive to it. I use formalin when treating ick. Its pretty harsh stuff and will kill a lot of other things than ick.

Keep an eye on the spot and make sure it doesn't grow or spread again. Its possible he could have nicked it on something sharp and its just healing. I also don't think ick can survive really well at the temps you maintain your discus at. I've personally never had ick on any discus. I'd add some salt because it can never hurt, but as long as they are eating and behaving normally, I'd stop treating for ick. You don't want to treat for something thats not really there.

I know its not a definitive answer, but I hope it helps.

 

[YSS]

YSS: Yes- that is kind of what I thought. Introduced the cordoras about 2 weeks ago but they were quarantined for two weeks prior to introduction and none of them show symptoms. My concern is that I have a stressed tank or some little bugger that is infecting my discus and I can't identify it . In your experience with discus could another protozoan be the cause? I think I need to set up the diatom filter......

Ok, then you did add something new to the tank. Most likely the source of your problem. UV is also an option. But ick is pretty easy to cure. Good luck.

 

[breeia]

ok. I guess the definition of new is in question. It shouldn't be for me as I have had tanks that I have not added anything to for 5 + years! But I thought the quarantine sufficient- and that if I did see anything it would be on the "new" fish relatively speaking. Some fish things are difficult to define....

 

[lonlangione]

Aquarisol is a copper solution and it is quite effective against ick if it isn't in an advanced stage. With the water changes you are doing, it will not cause an oxygen deficiency for your fish like copper can sometimes do. I would use it everyday until the spots are gone and two days after.

Ick is in all tanks that is true. Lights should not cause a fish to stress that much it would cause ick. Being bullied by other fish, other fish eating all the food before they get any and poor nutrition can lead to ick as well as a host of other problems.

Ick is small in size. If the spot is larger than normal, I would be inclined to net the fish and pull the spot off with my finger nail and put the fish back in the tank. I am a little unorthodox with some of my treatments, but I have found this to work in the past. Especially with stuff growing on fins. I would then keep an eye on it. One spot on a tail isn't going to kill a fish.

And one more thing, I hate UV systems...... Unless the UV system holds a LARGE amount of water and the water stays in the UV filter for a longer period of time, small units in my mind do not work.

Lonny

 

[jrpatter]

I see this stated alot and is wrong.

Freshwater ich is not in every water and every aquarium. It does not have a long term cyst stage once it is gone it is gone for good.

However the saltwater ich does. Alot of facts about freshwater and saltwater ich get mixed up.

Here is a good article explaining the differances.

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

Another good source for things we all know to be true that but are wrong about is:
Dr. Peter Burgess from Nov 2001 Practical Fishkeeping the article Old Wives Tales.

As for use of copper. Dont. It is very hard on catfish and other scaleless fish. Also studies are being done that show long tern organ dmg from copper.

A good treatment is a UV with a proper speed pump, salt, water changes, and melafix (tea tree oil). The ich can be killed by the UV only while it is in the free swimming stage. Lowering temp actually increases the length of time of the free swimming stage so it makes the UV more effective.

Salt is toxic to ich and is a decent stress reliever for the fish, however florida importers have made "super Ich" that is resistant to salt.

The Melafix makes the fish increase slime coat production so it is harder for the ich to infect the animal.

When the ich is in its cyst stage it settles out of the water, so doing small daily vaccuming of the bottom should remove these cysts. This is the water change when you are done give your water change hose a good bleach bath.

John

 

[YSS]

By the way, I always just raise the tank temp to 86 or higher in my discus tank when I have ick problems. It always does the trick.