Reed
Very Fishe
I enjoyed yesterday's talk the speaker was clearly an expert and knew his stuff but the talk was just too long.
Jmty
Members
Attention span disorder in my side is about that too
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dogofwar
CCA Members
Our guidance for speakers is "about an hour"... sometimes - usually - they go over. I could have listened to Sam all day. But I'm really interested in the topic and he had great videos, personal experiences and knowledge to share.
The fundamental disconnect, I believe arises from the fact that our speakers 1) are world-class experts on a particular topic and 2) have traveled usually a great distance / are spending a weekend away from their lives to come speak for us.
Matt
The fundamental disconnect, I believe arises from the fact that our speakers 1) are world-class experts on a particular topic and 2) have traveled usually a great distance / are spending a weekend away from their lives to come speak for us.
Matt
TovMahal
Members
I really enjoyed the talk, but it went on so long I forgot some of the information I found most interesting because after a while it started all running together.
I completely understand these speakers have a lot of information to share and are excited to share it. However, I think we really need to ask them to narrow the focus of their talks so they can keep it as close to an hour as possible.
For example, we could have asked Sam to focus on only one if the four areas, or his top 5 (or 10) fish from Costa Rica.
Again, I don't want to criticize Sam because I thought his presentation was interesting and was one if the better ones, but it just went on too long.
Just my $0.02
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I completely understand these speakers have a lot of information to share and are excited to share it. However, I think we really need to ask them to narrow the focus of their talks so they can keep it as close to an hour as possible.
For example, we could have asked Sam to focus on only one if the four areas, or his top 5 (or 10) fish from Costa Rica.
Again, I don't want to criticize Sam because I thought his presentation was interesting and was one if the better ones, but it just went on too long.
Just my $0.02
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guarddog5
CCA Members
+1, it was a bit long but it was a great presentation, I gained some great insight on this group of fish!
Thanks Sam!
Jim
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JLW
CCA Members
Sam's talk was really informative and had a lot of great information, but I think that is external to the point being made. No one intends any disrespect of Sam, his talk, or anything else, and I think we can all agree that he's a stand-up guy, very knowledgeable, etc. No one is intending anything negative about the talk itself, the speaker, or anything along those lines, except the length.
The talk ran almost two hours, and it is not the first time that this has happened with speakers at CCA; in fact, virtually all of our speakers run significantly over their time. Now, in Sam's case, there were definitely some extenuating circumstances -- there was a delay when the computer crashed, there was the Cub Scout meeting going on, etc., and all of that added to the talk's length. The difficulty with longer talks like this comes in from a number of directions -- and the biggest one is the human attention span. It's limited to about 45-60 minutes. There's a reason why the average TV show is an hour, why most classes are an hour, etc. etc. Heck, there's a reason why an hour is an hour long, and a part of that is because it's a convenient amount of time before people's attention begins to wander.
We also have to accept that any given speaker is not of complete interest to everyone in the room. If the speaker is speaking on Central American Cichlids, and you're an Mbuna guy; if the topic is Apistogramma and you're a Tank Buster; whatever.
Of course, other things do contribute to the length of a speaker's talk that can be avoided; interrupting him for questions, for example, is one of the most common ones. Really, if a speaker is interrupted for questions that take 5 minutes to answer, plus the time lost to the interruption and to get back on track, that can add up -- quickly.
I agree that this is a problem, within CCA and in general, and should be addressed. I think that a combination of reminding people to hold questions / comments / etc. until the end (many questions are better dealt with on a one on one with the speaker during the remainder of the meeting), and also a polite, but firm, reminder to speakers to keep their talk to an hour, combined with possibly someone taking the responsibility of discretely giving the speaker a 15-minute warning (which they may or may not heed), are all good things.
The talk ran almost two hours, and it is not the first time that this has happened with speakers at CCA; in fact, virtually all of our speakers run significantly over their time. Now, in Sam's case, there were definitely some extenuating circumstances -- there was a delay when the computer crashed, there was the Cub Scout meeting going on, etc., and all of that added to the talk's length. The difficulty with longer talks like this comes in from a number of directions -- and the biggest one is the human attention span. It's limited to about 45-60 minutes. There's a reason why the average TV show is an hour, why most classes are an hour, etc. etc. Heck, there's a reason why an hour is an hour long, and a part of that is because it's a convenient amount of time before people's attention begins to wander.
We also have to accept that any given speaker is not of complete interest to everyone in the room. If the speaker is speaking on Central American Cichlids, and you're an Mbuna guy; if the topic is Apistogramma and you're a Tank Buster; whatever.
Of course, other things do contribute to the length of a speaker's talk that can be avoided; interrupting him for questions, for example, is one of the most common ones. Really, if a speaker is interrupted for questions that take 5 minutes to answer, plus the time lost to the interruption and to get back on track, that can add up -- quickly.
I agree that this is a problem, within CCA and in general, and should be addressed. I think that a combination of reminding people to hold questions / comments / etc. until the end (many questions are better dealt with on a one on one with the speaker during the remainder of the meeting), and also a polite, but firm, reminder to speakers to keep their talk to an hour, combined with possibly someone taking the responsibility of discretely giving the speaker a 15-minute warning (which they may or may not heed), are all good things.
Dana
Members
I could not have said it better! I for one fell asleep after an hour Im getting old LOL
chriscoli
Administrator
I agree that we need to keep these talks to about an hour. In fact, I've told several speakers to please keep it to about an hour....many can't or don't. I remember chatting with Anton about this very topic and he said that a lot of it arises from the fact that many speakers feel that it's part of making sure we get our money's-worth out of their visit.
Anyone have any (please, keep it polite and constructive) suggestions about how to approach the topic with the speakers? I've flat-out asked several to keep it under an hour, which clearly doesn't seem to work because none of them did.
Anyone have any (please, keep it polite and constructive) suggestions about how to approach the topic with the speakers? I've flat-out asked several to keep it under an hour, which clearly doesn't seem to work because none of them did.
The talk was way too long even though I found the talk interesting and the videos informative.
Since each slide should be up no more than 60 seconds and each video up for less than a minute, any talk that contains more than 60 separate slides or videos is going to take more than an hour to present.
On that basis perhaps we could give instructions to potential speakers that we want talks of about 45 minutes and this means no more than 50 slides and or one minute videos. We could also indicate that we have time constraints since we have the room for only about 3 hours and have the talk, raffle and auction plus gathering time to fit in.
Since each slide should be up no more than 60 seconds and each video up for less than a minute, any talk that contains more than 60 separate slides or videos is going to take more than an hour to present.
On that basis perhaps we could give instructions to potential speakers that we want talks of about 45 minutes and this means no more than 50 slides and or one minute videos. We could also indicate that we have time constraints since we have the room for only about 3 hours and have the talk, raffle and auction plus gathering time to fit in.
JLW
CCA Members
The "Money's Worth" aspect doesn't necessarily hold water; the club paid for the speaker under the expectation of an hour, so the club valued their hour at whatever the total speaker costs are. Extending the talk, by that logic, devalues the speaker. :-D
As a speaker, I will say that I rarely know how long I was talking for, or how much time I've got left. There's usually not a clock obvious and apparent. A rehearsed talk can solve this problem, but it's often difficult to stick to the rehearsed schedule, particularly with interruptions (see my previous point on "please hold questions"). I think that the best option is to let our speakers know that we'll give them a 15-minute warning, and it'll be Jon Clark standing up in the back, catching their eye, and tapping his wrist. If a speaker ignores that and ploughs on through 3 more hours of material, so be it, but the club gave it their best.
One thing speakers also should keep in mind, as has been brought up by others: it is really hard for many people to maintain attention for more than an hour. So, if you have a really informative talk that stretches on for 90 minutes, the last 30 minutes of it are lost; if you condense the talk to 60 minutes, you can better make your points. Brevity is not just the soul of wit (says the guy who consistently makes the longest, most rambling posts.
Having once upon a time been a proff, I will admit that learning to fit your material to a schedule isn't easy -- you never want to run short or run long. Our speakers aren't professional speakers (or teachers), and we should give them /some/ slack.
Lastly, Frank makes a very good and valid point -- the club only has the meeting room for X number of hours, and there's more on the schedule than 'speaker.' When the speaker runs late, that time has to come from somewhere.
As a speaker, I will say that I rarely know how long I was talking for, or how much time I've got left. There's usually not a clock obvious and apparent. A rehearsed talk can solve this problem, but it's often difficult to stick to the rehearsed schedule, particularly with interruptions (see my previous point on "please hold questions"). I think that the best option is to let our speakers know that we'll give them a 15-minute warning, and it'll be Jon Clark standing up in the back, catching their eye, and tapping his wrist. If a speaker ignores that and ploughs on through 3 more hours of material, so be it, but the club gave it their best.
One thing speakers also should keep in mind, as has been brought up by others: it is really hard for many people to maintain attention for more than an hour. So, if you have a really informative talk that stretches on for 90 minutes, the last 30 minutes of it are lost; if you condense the talk to 60 minutes, you can better make your points. Brevity is not just the soul of wit (says the guy who consistently makes the longest, most rambling posts
. Having once upon a time been a proff, I will admit that learning to fit your material to a schedule isn't easy -- you never want to run short or run long. Our speakers aren't professional speakers (or teachers), and we should give them /some/ slack.
Lastly, Frank makes a very good and valid point -- the club only has the meeting room for X number of hours, and there's more on the schedule than 'speaker.' When the speaker runs late, that time has to come from somewhere.
kevin911
Members
What if we tell the speaker the speech should be 45-1hr, so if they go over it won't be much. This way, they know it's cap at 1hr vs "roughly" an hour?
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Becca
Members
I wasn't there on Saturday, but I think everyone is making great points. It might be something as simple as holding up a card at 45 minutes to remind the speaker of the time, or having some obvious reminder of the time, like an hour glass.
In terms of value - if there's too much information/a talk goes long enough that attention span suffers, club members retain less of it. Sometimes concise information is more valuable because it's easier to retain and catalog.
For speakers with such a wealth of knowledge, it might be nice for a member to host a dinner, or for members to just go out for dinner, after the meeting so that those with in-depth questions can spend some one-on-one time with the speaker.
In terms of value - if there's too much information/a talk goes long enough that attention span suffers, club members retain less of it. Sometimes concise information is more valuable because it's easier to retain and catalog.
For speakers with such a wealth of knowledge, it might be nice for a member to host a dinner, or for members to just go out for dinner, after the meeting so that those with in-depth questions can spend some one-on-one time with the speaker.
JasonC
Members
why not just try a small discrete digital clock up at the front of the room next to the projector where only the speaker can see it. Allows the speaker to self police instead of potentially embarrassing them by holding up time cards, or asking them to wrap it up. I dont know if there is a visible clock in the room, so this may help as speakers may really have no idea how long they are running.
Jmty
Members
It have to be hard for them to stop talking when they got so much knowledge they want to share.people come to your house to get fish and is hard to get them out in 5 minutes,someone be talking so much about what they got (reed) is one he kidnaps you haha.
spazmattik
Members
I just wanted to say I appreciate and enjoyed Sam's talk (not that other people didn't, just adding my thanks)
What if we broke the speakers talk up into two 30 minute sessions by having a short 5 minute intermission followed by the raffle and then the other 30 minutes. This could help attention spans as well as keep noise down (which wasn't bad on our end at all) from chip bags rustling, side talks, fish deals, ect...
What if we broke the speakers talk up into two 30 minute sessions by having a short 5 minute intermission followed by the raffle and then the other 30 minutes. This could help attention spans as well as keep noise down (which wasn't bad on our end at all) from chip bags rustling, side talks, fish deals, ect...
dogofwar
CCA Members
I think one of the fundamental disconnects is that most clubs only bring in the caliber of speakers that our club does (just about every month) a couple of times per year. And when they do, it's a really big deal. An event. And maybe part of a weekend convention. So most of the prepared presentations that they have are 90 minutes. And many times they do multiple presentations over a weekend.
Bringing in speakers from across the country (or world) costs clubs quite a bit and most speakers really want to ensure that they can share as much as they can with the club. That's honestly how many of them think about it: they can give clubs more by imparting more wisdom. I agree that sometimes less is more. It's just hard to change that mindset (especially when they're getting the opposite message from other clubs).
One of trademarks of our club is the high quality of speakers (thanks Pat!). We have acknowledged experts nearly every month. The speakers, the number of club members and that we have auctions (and big ones) nearly every meeting makes our meeting time pretty jam-packed (as an aside we usually have the room from 1-6 PM, are almost always out of the room at least 30 mins early...and have never been asked to leave or kicked out if we run over).
The ven diagram of people who are world experts on fish and also work-class presenters has some overlap. But not complete. I'd rather have people who know what they're talking about (and run over sometimes) than the opposite
So what do we do?
I agree that a clock and signals could help.
Maybe a planned pause halfway through.
Maybe add some time to meetings (an hour on either end could make things feel less hurried).
But really, the last thing that we want to do is beat up on our speakers for going a little long (or be perceived that way). They volunteer to do this for us and the last thing we want is for speakers to get the impression that our club is ungrateful or unappreciative. They want to do a good job and by and large they do (including Sam).
We want to continue to be a very highly regarded club by speakers. That's taking good care of them while they're here and having a little extra patience when they go long.
Matt
Bringing in speakers from across the country (or world) costs clubs quite a bit and most speakers really want to ensure that they can share as much as they can with the club. That's honestly how many of them think about it: they can give clubs more by imparting more wisdom. I agree that sometimes less is more. It's just hard to change that mindset (especially when they're getting the opposite message from other clubs).
One of trademarks of our club is the high quality of speakers (thanks Pat!). We have acknowledged experts nearly every month. The speakers, the number of club members and that we have auctions (and big ones) nearly every meeting makes our meeting time pretty jam-packed (as an aside we usually have the room from 1-6 PM, are almost always out of the room at least 30 mins early...and have never been asked to leave or kicked out if we run over).
The ven diagram of people who are world experts on fish and also work-class presenters has some overlap. But not complete. I'd rather have people who know what they're talking about (and run over sometimes) than the opposite
So what do we do?
I agree that a clock and signals could help.
Maybe a planned pause halfway through.
Maybe add some time to meetings (an hour on either end could make things feel less hurried).
But really, the last thing that we want to do is beat up on our speakers for going a little long (or be perceived that way). They volunteer to do this for us and the last thing we want is for speakers to get the impression that our club is ungrateful or unappreciative. They want to do a good job and by and large they do (including Sam).
We want to continue to be a very highly regarded club by speakers. That's taking good care of them while they're here and having a little extra patience when they go long.
Matt
JLW
CCA Members
Well said, Matt. With the exception of that clown who talked on collecting in Uruguay a few months ago, all of CCA's speakers have been great.
I want to emphasize that no one is criticising the speaker at all, just what is perceived to be an ongoing problem.
I want to emphasize that no one is criticising the speaker at all, just what is perceived to be an ongoing problem.
dogofwar
CCA Members
At least I didn't go long
I agree it's been an ongoing issue and one that we should think through pragmatically.
If we established a (pre-planned and communicated with the speaker) presentation intermission to stretch, get food, BS for a minute or two, check messages, let stragglers come in and get settled, etc. at, say, the 45 minute mark, do we think that it would cut down on the fatigue (and the noise in the room?
What about having a separate room or tables in the hall(?) for people really not interested in the speaker to do fish deals and otherwise kill time before the raffles / auction?
Matt
I agree it's been an ongoing issue and one that we should think through pragmatically.
If we established a (pre-planned and communicated with the speaker) presentation intermission to stretch, get food, BS for a minute or two, check messages, let stragglers come in and get settled, etc. at, say, the 45 minute mark, do we think that it would cut down on the fatigue (and the noise in the room?
What about having a separate room or tables in the hall(?) for people really not interested in the speaker to do fish deals and otherwise kill time before the raffles / auction?
Matt
Well said, Matt. With the exception of that clown who talked on collecting in Uruguay a few months ago, all of CCA's speakers have been great.
I want to emphasize that no one is criticising the speaker at all, just what is perceived to be an ongoing problem.
JLW
CCA Members
Matt, I think the issue isn't really that people aren't interested in the speaker, but that the speaker goes on long enough to become uninteresting. An intermission is an attempted solution, but at the 45-minute mark, that basically says "we expect you to talk for 90-120 minutes."
I like the idea of a clock or other timekeeper right in front of the speaker. I think it is the simplest solution, and the one least likely to offend a speaker.
I like the idea of a clock or other timekeeper right in front of the speaker. I think it is the simplest solution, and the one least likely to offend a speaker.
blkmjk
Members
Having never had the opportunity to speak to fellow hobbyist about something I'm an expert on. There fore I am lacking solid positioning. But I have spoken before at professional events and what I can say is this. I am never offended when people ask me to wrap it up. Running long is my style of presenting. If you don't have the time for a full presentation it is your loss not mine. That said the reason I would be sharing is not because I'm paid to it is because I enjoy it and want truly share my knowledge.
Just my 2 cents.
Just my 2 cents.
